“I think this could be way bigger than the internet.” CoinFund’s Seth Ginns describes the opportunity ahead for crypto, predicting the market cap could grow at least 10× in the next few years. In this in-depth conversation with Chris Perkins, Seth explains how Digital Asset Treasuries (DATs) are becoming Wall Street’s bridge into crypto, unlocking staking yields, DeFi income, and permanent capital advantages ETFs can’t match. He breaks down how DATs defend against NAV discounts with buybacks, cash reserves, and M&A, and why strong management teams are critical for success.
You’ll also hear why institutional flows, macro tailwinds, and a pro-crypto U.S. policy could power massive growth, how AI + crypto could spawn the next wave of DATs, and why a global M2 liquidity signal that leads Bitcoin’s price by ~100 days has him bullish. Plus, Seth shares his vision for an on-chain equity market that could transform capital formation worldwide.
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Seth Ginns 0:00
In the next few years, the market cap of this space should be at least one order of magnitude larger than it is now. And I’m I’m talking real order of magnitude, so 10x way bigger than the internet. Hello, ladies
Christopher Perkins 0:22
and gentlemen. I am really excited about this episode because I am going to be speaking with my partner, Seth Ginns, who runs liquid strategies at Coin fund. Seth,
Seth Ginns 0:32
welcome Chris. Thanks for having me.
Christopher Perkins 0:36
Please start by telling the listeners your background. I mean, I have the pleasure of working with you every day, but love for them to get to know you a little bit better.
Seth Ginns 0:43
Yeah. Thank you so. So I’ve had a an interesting journey to running a crypto fund. I started in public equities. I did fundamental large cap growth equities investing for 18 years at Jennison Associates, and I started looking at crypto, just in my personal investing capacity back in 2012 and my view was always, listen, I think this is an area that could be massive, but we needed a lot of institutional quality infrastructure. That infrastructure took a while to come together. I was watching it closely, but it took the better part of eight years. And by 2018, 2019 I saw things like Coinbase, custody, fidelity, custody, CME, CBOE futures at the time, CBOE then backed out of it, and I said, this is where we’re seeing the early seeds of real institutional infrastructure. This is the right time to launch a fund. And left at the end of 19 and launched our fund Feb one of 20.
Christopher Perkins 1:55
Awesome. And look, we’re lucky today. We’re going to talk about crypto, we’re going to talk about markets, we’re going to talk about macro, and we’re also going to talk about something called dats. And my sense is that this is going to be the DAT episode. Dats are known as digital asset Treasury companies. They were first made popular by Michael Saylor, but we’ve seen an absolute proliferation of these things in recent weeks, Seth, I was going to ask you what’s on your minds, but I think I know what’s on your mind. Let’s start with dats. What do you think
Seth Ginns 2:28
dats on the mind? Listen, I think I think dats are a really important tool to push us forward on the path of convergence between traditional finance and crypto. So there’s a lot of there’s a lot of confusion, there’s a lot of fear around the fact that you have these equities that are buying crypto tokens. People think back to I, I don’t know if, if your audience is familiar with the grayscale trusts, and at one point they started trading at a discount. I think these are very different types of vehicles. They’re coming in a very different type of regulatory environment, and they’re really a reflection of the fact that a lot of traditional investors want to get exposure to crypto, and they don’t want to wait until the market structure bill. They don’t want to wait until they can own crypto directly. They want to to get exposure in equity vehicles today, ahead of the curve, ahead of their peers. So these digital asset Treasuries are, in our view, very much addressing a number of frictions. A lot of funds can’t own tokens directly. As I noted, a lot of funds can’t own ETFs on commodities, which is what they would own if they owned one of the Bitcoin or Ethereum ETFs. The ETFs can’t stake today the ETFs can’t earn yield in in defi. So there are a lot of things that you can do with these digital asset treasuries that are very crypto native that you just can’t do in traditional funds. Otherwise,
Mario Rodriguez 4:17
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Christopher Perkins 4:38
now. So I think you’re really uniquely positioned, because you have that 18 years in equity investing, and you also have you’re one of the oldest, not from a personal investors in the liquid space as well. What should people think about or how do you think about things as you underwrite one of. Stats is it, do you leverage your ex, your equity side? You leverage the crypto side? What’s the nuance of that underwrite?
Seth Ginns 5:06
So it’s interesting. I think the the experience that we have as a team, yourself, included Matthew Potts on on my team, the experience that we have in the traditional financial world, the connectivity that we have there, has been invaluable, because a lot of a lot of what we’re doing, first of all is analyzing these as traditional equities. That’s something that we know how to do really well. It’s something that I grew up with. And then we’re saying, Okay, you have a value per share of crypto assets on this company’s balance sheet. How is this company thinking about growing that value per share? That’s the Bitcoin yield, as Michael Saylor calls it. How is the company thinking about growing that value per share of crypto tokens. What’s our view on the underlying crypto token? Right? Do we do we think it’s going to go up? What are the catalysts for that? Because that obviously can increase the value per share as well of your net asset value, then thinking about some things that I think really come from the intersection of our experience in traditional financing crypto, like, what is the intrinsic multiple that these should trade at? So if you’re a proof of stake coin, so you have holders who commit their coin to help secure the network, and they receive an in kind yield if you expect that coin to perform well, what is the intrinsic value of a fund or a company that’s staking the coins that it has on its balance sheet? And our view is it actually isn’t 1.0 times the value of the coins on the balance sheet, but because you have that in kind yield, it’s actually 1.2 1.3 and I think that insight of the intrinsic value, the multiple that these should trade At for fair value, is already above 1.0 that’s a really interesting insight. Another really interesting traditional finance insight is the the trading volume that you trade on a daily basis is really important, because a traditional fund that’s looking to buy hundreds of millions of dollars of one of these operating companies that gives them exposure to Bitcoin or Ethereum, they want to know that they can enter the the company, enter the equity Without material slippage, and they want to know that they’ll be able to get out when they want to get out without material slippage. So when you look at a company like bit mine, this is Tom Lee’s Ethereum digital asset treasury. Last I checked, which was about an hour ago, and it already traded over $7 billion today, which would have made it, I think it’s a top 15 or 20 most traded equity in in the market right now. So huge trading volume, huge market cap in the the mid to high single digit billions, which makes it accessible to large long onlys that want exposure to the space.
Christopher Perkins 8:47
Yeah, it’s a great answer. So I was tweeting about this over the weekend, where we spent all this time on tokenization, where we say, Hey, we’re going to take this real world asset, we’re going to tokenize it, and we’re going to send it off into the universe, let it settle globally. And now this is almost like the inverse tokenization trade, because we’re taking crypto native tokens, we’re turning them into equities. You know, I would argue you mentioned it earlier. This is a major regulatory unlock, because the previous chairman, God rest his soul like he would never allow this. But what you’re doing now is you’re essentially taking this very unique asset that’s oftentimes difficult to acquire, or your investment mandate doesn’t allow you to acquire it, and you’re availing it. You’re giving it the opportunity to participate in the US capital markets, just like any other security. So you go into your brokerage account, off you go. Now, Seth, you talked about m nav, which we call talk about multiple than apps. These are things are trading at a premium. You know? I’d also make the point that ETFs are different than dats. You know, they have daily liquidity, and like, we haven’t seen them being able to figure out staking yet, because there’s a liquidity mismatch. So I guess, as an investor, you. You know, do you think that all the liquidity already talked about liquidity, it’s going to flow into dats. Dats are going to be the these central places where you want access to, like, you know, truly yielding eth you’re going to go into, into Tom’s. Dat what role the ETF is going to play in the future?
Seth Ginns 10:17
Well, so I think two really important things that you touched on there. One is these digital asset Treasuries are taking flows from traditional finance and investing them directly into crypto assets. So this is a bridge to bring those traditional financial flows into crypto that’s number one and super important. But number two, these are permanent capital, which is a key distinction from the ETF so the ETFs are fantastic. They’ve been a great early bridge for traditional finance. They trade always at a, what we would call a 1.0 m nav, so they always trade at the value of their underlying assets. When I say always, I mean a properly functioning ETF in the space, whereas digital asset Treasuries are permanent capital. So the this is capital that’s raised by the business to then invest in the crypto assets, and that allows them to do more things with the crypto asset, like stake, without having to have concerns about whether they can deliver an unstaked asset as a redemption with daily liquidity like the ETFs Need to do so. That’s the reason why the ETFs aren’t allowed to stake right now because of that daily liquidity. As you pointed out, permanent capital allows you to capture the full functionality of these crypto tokens by not having the potential for for redemption. So ETFs play an important role. They they mimic, very directly, owning the underlying assets. So that’s the reason why a lot of ETFs are a lot of ETF flows have been tied to what’s called the the the basis trade, or the carry trade, where you’re going long the underlying token, or long the ETF, you’re going short a dated future, and you capture that yield as the future and spot converge. So the ETFs have actually been a very popular vehicle for that trade as a risk free way of capturing a yield tied to Bitcoin or Ethereum. The digital asset treasuries serve a very different purpose. They actually don’t work well as the long side of that basis trade, because they aren’t one for one traded in tandem with the underlying token. There’s a an added tailwind to them if they’re executed well, which is that the company is building its position in the underlying asset on a per share basis, so they’re more of a higher risk, higher reward bet on the underlying asset, just like what you get from MicroStrategy versus owning underlying Bitcoin.
Christopher Perkins 13:33
Really appreciate that. Now I was in futures. I remember a time when oil went negative. We’ve seen a very positive M nav to this point for most of the companies, I think we all expect there’s going to be a time there’s going to be a stress when that M nav goes negative. What should people think about? How does, how do these companies manage these types of scenarios? Because, like, you know, at a very basic level, people say, Well, this can never go negative, because I’m going to have the value of the assets, but we know it well and it can How do companies navigate that when the M nav goes negative, and what are the consequences?
Seth Ginns 14:06
Yeah, I mean, that’s the that’s the flip side of this, essentially varying right now to the upside of the value of the underlying assets. You can just as well vary to the downside. So there are a few different dynamics at play here that we think will protect against sustained trading below nav for the highest quality digital asset treasury. So first of all, you’re seeing a bunch of digital asset treasuries put in place share buyback authorizations. So if they end up in a situation where they’re trading below their net asset value, they can then go into the market and buy back stock. We’re seeing a bunch of them say, You know what, we’re going. To in the good times, we’re going to keep a few days worth of buying reserves. So the cash that they would be putting into buying the underlying asset, we’re going to keep a few days worth of cash as a reserve. So if we do trade below nav, we’ll be able to step in and buy our equity back and have that be accretive to net asset value per share. The other thing that that we’re seeing is, or that we could see, is consolidation. So there’s likely going to be a wide range of multiples, the digital asset treasuries trade at and the the strongest ones, the ones that are trading at a high premium to their net asset value, can go in and acquire ones that are trading at A discount, and that can be very accretive to their net asset value. For sure, they’re basically buying the underlying assets at a discount. Now, I think what’s really interesting about that there’s a little bit of game theory to that, because once one company comes out and says, Hey, we’re going to buy this, this other digital asset Treasury that’s trading at a discount. Immediately across the space. People say, Well, hold on a sec. Anyone that’s trading at a discount is a potential takeout target. So all you need is one trading at a discount, one bid coming in to to try to buy them, and that provides another layer of protection for the entire space, against having them trade at a discount to nap. But my guess would be two. Two things, actually, three things would would be the likely driver of a discount. One is a drawdown in crypto prices would probably get people rushing for the exits from the equities as well, and for the ones that that are kind of the the weaker structures out of the digital asset treasuries, they could trade at a discount more quickly. Two, I think the the introduction of leverage has tended to be what’s done in these, in general, closed end funds when they start to trade at a discount. It’s because either there’s leverage in the corporate structure itself, or people are starting to do leverage trades with that instrument. And then the third thing is the market structure bill, where, I think, when we get a market structure bill, and that could be in the next few months, that could be out into 26 I think you have some market participants who are currently getting their exposure through digital asset treasuries, saying I don’t need a bridge anymore. I can go directly to the underlying token. I can stake it myself. I can go into defi myself. So that would be another reason why we might start to see these multiples compress and potentially go negative. Now, one interesting dynamic post market structure bill, and that won’t happen overnight, right with the market structure? Bill, it will take funds three months, six months a year, two years, to start to get everything in place. But when that does happen, one of the things that you could see is the digital asset treasuries being tokenized themselves. So they become tokenized assets, tokenized equities. And then you could see interesting things like, well, if we’re trading at a discount, we can just distribute it at nav to you, right? Well, if that’s gonna be the case, you immediately stop trading at discount the moment the distribution starts to happen. So, or is the noun? So there are a lot of ways to kind of protect the multiple on these vehicles. Yeah. I
Christopher Perkins 19:20
mean, the one thing that I’m taking away from your comments is that management teams matter, and that’s one way that a lot of these dats are going to be able to distinguish themselves. So align with a good management team as you’re doing your underwriting. But the one thing,
Seth Ginns 19:34
yeah, and by the way, on that point, sorry, sorry to interrupt, but on that point, you kind of have a fork in the road. You have two different approaches to the underlying crypto assets that we see. So some management teams are like Michael Saylor right at strategy, and they’re saying, We will never sell our underlying asset. Right? It is coming in. It is being parked. It. Is never moving. Now, other teams are saying, Listen, if we trade below nav, it makes sense for us to sell the underlying assets, sell the crypto asset and use the proceeds to buy back the stock. That’s a creative so knowing the management team that you’re invested in knowing how they talk about their asset management strategy, it’s going to be really important to understanding how they may respond in a situation where they they go below the the nav.
Christopher Perkins 20:33
Totally agree. And so I think management teams can be a huge part of any underwrite. The second part of the underwrite you touched on earlier is the token like, what are they trying to acquire? And we’re seeing some really fascinating things, right? We saw everyone forward to Bitcoin, starting with Saylor. We’re seeing some really interesting companies and very strong management teams pouring into eth. You’re seeing a little bit of soul, but we’re also starting to see tail assets now, and I think today there is an announcement around story protocol. Story protocol is an A 16 z there, there, there investors, there. IP platform. That was really interesting. Then we saw world Liberty financial, which is now doing something very interesting as well. They’re taking really a private token and making it accessible, not only in the public realm, but via securities. And so how do you think about those two examples? And like, how far are we going to go on the tail? Is the opportunity in the tail alts? Is it in the majors? Can you just unpack that Seth,
Seth Ginns 21:34
well, I think what we’re seeing, Chris is a it’s really a mapping of what’s accessible in the crypto world, into the the equities world. So as you said, it started with them, with what I call the Super majors, right, with Bitcoin, with eth, with Solana, but but now we’re seeing Telegram, we’re seeing Athena, we’re seeing hyper liquid, and we’re going now into the lower market cap names as well, still generally in the billions of dollars of fully diluted and I think that we’re testing the market. But I’d say we have to be careful about reading too much into how some of these are performing. And BMB was a big one, and that’s kind of in that super major market cap range as well. But I think we have to be careful about reading too much into the initial trading when we’re looking at tokens that are launching digital asset treasuries in the middle of August. I think there are a lot of moving parts right now, but I think the setup here is actually quite interesting for that full mapping of crypto assets to traditional equities. I think that the world Liberty was particularly interesting because, as you note, it is a private investment. Right now. It’s not traded yet, and the market response has actually been quite robust. So the token is in this digital asset Treasury at a pretty significant markup to the last private round, and I think that’s a result of excitement around the launch of their stablecoin, USD one, and seeing the early signs of What they want to build out in a defi ecosystem, and then there is a with crypto tokens. When you’re private, there can still be pre launch markets that start to trade. And we’ve seen some very good excitement around world liberty in the pre launch market as well.
Christopher Perkins 23:57
Yeah, I’ve been looking at this space closely, and I thought it was fascinating with what Robinhood did with OpenAI, where they put an SPV, they tokenized it, and you’re starting to see the means by which we can start offering retail and normal people access to private investments. I think that’s going to be pretty big on lock, and I want to start pivoting to crypto, but I’ve got a really big question before we do of the verticals that you’re seeing into that space so far, are there any verticals or like, are any upcoming projects that really get you going, that you’re excited about? So
Seth Ginns 24:31
that’s a great question. I think one of the verticals where we haven’t seen digital asset treasuries yet, and both as a liquid fund, but then also across our firm, we’re super excited, and think this vertical is is going to be one of the most impactful over the next coming years, is the intersection of AI. In crypto. So I think we’ll probably see some very big digital asset treasuries come at that intersection. We haven’t yet, but there are a number of interesting crypto projects there. There aren’t that many ways to invest in key AI infrastructure in the public equities world, other than the hyper scalers. So I think it’s going to be a very interesting area as we see this digital asset Treasury trend extend. And you know, I’ve gotten the question a lot, where are we in this trend? Right? Are we? Are we toward the tail end of it? Are we at the beginning of it? And I actually think we’re, we’re still in the very early innings of this. I think we’re still in the phase of really like constituting these businesses, building the foundation that they can then build very big businesses on. You know, if you think about Tom Lee’s bit mine started with two 50 million, I believe is what they what they did for their private placement. And here we are now in the billions of assets under management, so we’re in that seeding phase, but then the next phase is the growth phase, expanding their engagement with capital markets. So issuing debt, issuing preferred stock, maybe consolidation, as we talked about earlier. So I think we’re still in the early innings here, and then we’ll move into the middle innings of these different capital markets activities as these become very large, high growth businesses.
Christopher Perkins 26:51
I agree, we’re on the frontier. And there’s even little things that haven’t been sorted out yet, like, hey, this accounting treatment for my LST needs to get fixed. Hey, this tax thing doesn’t make sense. All that’s going to get sorted. And like, you know, I’m constantly on the phone with regulators who want to make it work. And as you point out, these anomalies are like, Oh, we didn’t realize we’re on it right? Because they want to make this thing work. So it’s super exciting. Seth, we’re going to pivot, but before we do any last thoughts about that?
Seth Ginns 27:21
No, look, I again, I think dats are really a bridge. They’re a really important bridge that is bringing us we talk about at Coin fund, the convergence between traditional finance and crypto the market. It’s funny, capital markets find a way, right? They’re a little bit like water, and traditional investors want to invest in crypto. They can’t do it until they have the market structure bill and the emergence of these digital asset treasuries is that bridge that’s allowing them to engage now without having to wait for legislation. So I think it’s a very healthy trend that’s just like the cutting edge of having crypto come more broadly into capital markets broadly.
Christopher Perkins 28:14
Yeah, it’s the capital market, Steve, it’s not just about selling or buying it on your brokerage account. That’s a huge unlock. But borrow, lend. You can insure different yields. Now there’s so many different things you can do, because it’s just great, just like any other equity, which is really cool, all right, so that’s the dats, but I think it’s part of a bigger conversation, probably around macro right? We’re seeing this incredible de risking from really throw perspective we talked about, maybe we’ll start with macro Seth, like, what are you seeing out there? What are you paying attention to? What should listeners be focusing on?
Seth Ginns 28:47
I mean, look, I think one of the biggest macro themes right now is the changes that are happening at the Fed. It’s continued liquidity. So the changes that are happening at the Fed clearly pointing to more dovish positioning, whether it’s the dissent at the last Fed meeting, obviously also it helps the having the weaker non farm payrolls. So we’re now seeing markets the Fed Funds Futures market price in a high probability of a cut in September, it was over 80% the last time I checked. So we’re seeing an expectation that the Fed is going to become more dovish, that that obviously is a an important tailwind for for broader markets. We’re seeing the dollar, which had traded off quite a bit. It started to get a bit again, but it’s kind of stalled out. So seeing the dollar remain relatively weak again an important tailwind. And then when you look at global liquidity, and we like to look at global m2 Uh, as an indicator for crypto in particular, with what we found is, and this is actually out of an analysis from Coinbase, 100 day lag of global m2 is a really interesting predictor for bitcoins price. So when global m2 inflects up, and that’s m2 adjusted for currency, so brought into dollars, when it ticks up, you see that impact in Bitcoin about 100 days later. And then think about Bitcoin as being the bellwether for the broader crypto space. So we’re coming into an environment where you have the Fed starting to shift incrementally more dovish. The economic data kind of opening the door a little wider for them to affect that shift. You’re going to have a shadow Fed Chair soon as well, appointed by the administration and liquidity is actually pointing to an uptick in crypto prices in the back half of the month, and then combine that with the digital asset Treasury flows, some very, very constructive dynamics at play right now in the market.
Christopher Perkins 31:23
So you’re bullish, then
Seth Ginns 31:27
I’m pretty bullish.
Christopher Perkins 31:30
How do you think this? I mean, where are we in the bull market? I mean, you know, I think you said we’re kind of in the beginning of the debt cycle. I imagine we’re similar here on the bull cycle from your perspective. So
Seth Ginns 31:42
it’s really interesting. I mean, you’ve tended to historically have a four year cycle that was situated around the Bitcoin having. And there was always this question of, is it really about the Bitcoin having? And by the way, the halving is when bitcoins new supply issuance gets cut in half. That happens roughly every four years. And it, it’s, it’s been, I think, more of a coincidence that that lined up with the bull market. Because if you take global liquidity and you overlay that as well, that’s really been what looks like the driver of past crypto cycles. So I think we’re now coming into a period where, if you look at the traditional four year cycle, just off of the having it would point to this being the last year of the cycle. But when you look at what’s happening with global liquidity. When you look at the fact that we have the most pro crypto administration in the US that we’ve ever had, they’ve delivered more than they’ve promised on the campaign trail, more quickly than they promised on the the campaign trail. And I think we’re only seeing the first order effects of that today. And as we have more and more institutions come over into crypto, as they start engaging more, we’ll start seeing what those second order. What those third order impacts of a more open policy and regulatory environment are, whether it’s massive penetration of stable coins. You know, the Treasury Department is talking about 2 trillion plus of stable coins outstanding by the end of this administration, by 2028 so I think as we see the second order, third order effects, that actually is what shows it brings to the forefront how large the addressable market is here, and it brings to the forefront all of the tailwinds that are really giving you the the fuel for very large price targets for for a lot of the best positioned, high quality crypto tokens. So you know, it’s always dangerous to say this time is different, but it does very much look like we have the liquidity, the macro, the fundamental and the policy and regulatory tailwinds to see some really nice follow through. Last thing I’ll quickly say on this is, you know, earlier this year, there was a big drawdown in crypto tokens in one queue. So, you know, we had the election, and there was a lot of enthusiasm after the election. We saw prices go up quite a bit, and then you came into the inauguration and and very quickly, crypto prices started to to fall quite a bit. And. Right? In fact, altcoins broadly are still down on the year right now, and a lot of that was tied to fears that tariffs were going to bring inflation back, fears that tariffs were going to slow the economy, fears that the Fed was going to remain focused on being hawkish, keeping monetary policy tight, and making the same type of policy mistake, but in the opposite direction of what they made in 21 our view was, listen, we saw the promises from the administration for the the crypto industry starting to be fulfilled, literally from day one of post inauguration. And our view was, once you have the clouds, the macro clouds part, once you have the fears of tariffs start to go away, once you have the fears of a slowing economy, recession start to go away, you’d start to price in the the secular tailwinds, and I think that’s what we’re starting to see now. So I’d certainly bet on some nice continuation here, and no longer being in the traditional four year cycle.
Christopher Perkins 36:17
Yeah, I think you’re right, and I’m not going to ask you the price of Bitcoin by year end. But when I was stepping back and I’m like, wow, this is amazing setup, I realized that we were going to have trillions of dollars of stable coins coming into the system. You can’t get yield on that. So what are you going to do? Either going to use them to buy alts, you’re going to go to defi and generate yield, whatever. I didn’t see the amount of capital that was coming in via the debts, and so now you have these two big waves of capital coming in. I guess today we surpassed, I think, $4.1 trillion of market cap in crypto, which is like an all time high. So I’m not going to ask you about Bitcoin, but I’m going to ask you, like, by the by year end, what do you think the market cap of crypto is going to be with these two tidal waves of capital coming into the
Seth Ginns 37:02
system. Yeah, so I think I like to try to avoid short term price predictions. What I’ll tell you is I’m very bullish on Bitcoin, I’m very bullish on eth, and I’m very bullish on the fundamentally focused altcoins doing incredibly well. I also think we’re incredibly early in this journey. We talked about how early we were in digital asset treasuries. Digital Asset Treasuries are a very early phase. Again, they’re a little bit of a band aid. They’re a little bit of a bridge. They’re very interesting companies, and they’re going to be some, I think, generational businesses built out of a few of the digital asset treasuries. But that’s that bridge component of digital asset treasuries is a sign of how early we are, because we don’t have a market structure bill yet. It’s a priority of the administration, but we haven’t gotten it passed yet in Congress. So I think we’re in the early phase of the secular growth of this industry. It’s going to transform all aspects of finance, but it’s also going to transform because this is a capital markets technology. It’s going to transform capital formation, not just in the US, but globally, but the US will hopefully be the leader here, and that’s going to drive an acceleration in innovation and acceleration and how quickly people with great ideas can build them into meaningful businesses, and how quickly they can get broad distribution. So I would think it’s it’s not a stretch to say in the next few years, the market cap of this space should be at least one order of magnitude larger than it is now. And I’m I’m talking real order of magnitude, so 10x and I would think over the next few years, it wouldn’t shock me if we got to more than one order of magnitude larger, probably doing the heavy lift on that would be Bitcoin and eth, but then having a Cambrian explosion, because look like Chris, I think the whole equity market is going to be on chain, but it’s going to be the equity market plus plus, right? Like so you and I have talked about this a bunch, but when you lower the cost of creating capital markets instruments, and when you tie in AI and being able to manage with a level of complexity that it might just be me, but most humans can’t manage. You could get to a world where you have Walmart tokenize each of their stores as an individual business, and you could invest in a store a region or the overall company, and all of that can be as aggregated or as disaggregated as you want, and the cash flows all tied together. And you can incentivize the management teams on their own business, their own region there, right? And a little bit on the overall company as well. So there’s some really innovative things, and by kind of it’s almost like maximum price delineation right by by being able to break things up into their their atomic parts, they’re they’re most like the parts that are most at their essence. You can get to the most efficient pricing for the capital going into each part of the business. So it’s kind of like a radical capitalism that also creates an ownership economy, which is fantastic,
Christopher Perkins 41:11
awesome. Well, I think some of the listeners got a taste today for what, what it’s like to work at coinfund. We talk about these things all day long. This is all that we do. It’s really, really fun. Seven. Any last thoughts, you
Seth Ginns 41:25
know, I think the it’s funny a friend of ours, in our first meeting with him, he was at a very big pension, and we said in the meeting, you know, we we think this could be as big as the internet. And he was like, Guys, no, no, you’re not bullish enough. I think this could be way bigger than the internet. I think he’s right. This is and, and we’re some of the most bullish people out there, but, but the reality is this touches every business, just like AI. It’s as big a trend as as AI, and it it drives more efficient business formation, company formation. It drives incentivization across the consumer world, like you cannot get bigger than incentivizing consumers with ownership in the businesses that they love and and that’s kind of crypto at its core. So I think this is something that is going to be very exciting for people to track, to start to dabble in and pay a lot of attention to over time. Awesome. Seth, how can people connect with you? I’m on Twitter at Seth, Ginns, S, C, T, H, G, I N, N, S,
Christopher Perkins 42:56
awesome. Really appreciate you coming on today and hope to have you on in the near future. Thanks again,
Seth Ginns 43:01
awesome. Thanks, Chris.
