Join James Connor in an eye-opening discussion with Jason Shapiro, creator of the ‘Crowded Market Report’ ( @crowdedmarketreport ) and a featured Commodity Trading Advisor in Jack Schwager’s ‘Unknown Market Wizards.’ With an impressive track record of 23 years of consecutive profits, Jason delves into his sophisticated strategies for trading futures, the importance of contrarian thinking, and the art of capitalizing on market fluctuations. Explore his insights on risk management, discipline, and the psychology of trading. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for both the aspiring and the seasoned traders.
James Connor 0:05
Hi, welcome to Wealthion. I’m James Connor. And today my guest is Jason Shapiro. Jason is a commodity trading advisor, it trades futures on behalf of institutional clients. Jason was featured in Jack Schwager, his book unknown Market Wizards because of his consistent ability to make money year after year, and his head 23 consecutive up years. Jason, thank you very much for joining us today.
Jason Shapiro 0:29
Thanks for having me.
James Connor 0:30
Jason, here we are in early 2020, for q4 numbers will be coming out in earnest in the coming weeks. And we also have a Fed meeting coming up at the end of the month. It’s also a presidential year, and there’s a lot going on throughout the world. But is there anything that’s going on right now that concerns you? Or is there anything that keeps you up at night?
Jason Shapiro 0:50
You know, not anything specific? I would say, you know, other than what always concerns me? And what always keeps me up at night, which is how am I going to figure out how to put up good risk adjusted returns here. But it to me, it’s all it’s all pretty normal. You do this long enough. And you know, every year there’s something every quarter, there’s earnings, and there’s always fed meetings and those elections and there’s always politics, and there’s always Geopolitical Problems, you know, it’s just becomes kind of the same, the same thing over time.
James Connor 1:22
But I guess the one thing that really must keep you up at night, though, is when you head into year end, you’ve had 23 consecutive up years, you’re probably always nervous about that one year.
Jason Shapiro 1:33
You know, it’s not really, unfortunately, within my control unnecessarily, I have a process that I follow in my trading. It has taken me this far. So my plan is to just continue to follow the process. And that’s, that’s all I can really do you know what I mean, and just follow my process. That’s what my job is to do. You know, say it’s work this far. So hopefully, it will continue to work, possibility at one day, it won’t work anymore. And I just hope that I will be cognizant enough to find when that time is. So
James Connor 2:11
I want to speak a little bit more about your process. But before we do that, why don’t we just start with your backstory? How did you start trading where you started trading? And what was the evolution of this process?
Jason Shapiro 2:25
I think I started like a lot of people do, I was a kid. And I was at a time living in in Hong Kong. But there was I was in a job that was pretty boring to me. And there was just fantastic bull market going on around me. And it seemed like a good way to make some money, you know, so I put some money into an account. And I just started getting involved and learned a lot of lessons hopefully, along the way about, you know, bull markets, bear markets, how markets work, I went through the whole process, if I made money and, you know, figured out was a hero and then gave it all back and figured out was zero and then had to kind of do the soul searching and figured out this is really what I wanted to do with my time and went through a number of years where I went back and forth where I read all the books on fundamental analysis and technical analysis and trading psychology and all the Market Wizards books and, you know, hundreds and hundreds of books trying to figure out what it was going to take to make this work and had, you know, various levels of successes and failures and and slowly just kind of developed a process that I thought would give me the best chance of success over time and, and have sort of been trading that process now for the last since 2000. So for the last 23 years.
James Connor 3:51
And so Okay, so you started this process in the year 2000. So how many years did it take you to develop it?
Jason Shapiro 3:56
James Connor 3:59
And then I’m sure you had a lot of false starts along the way maybe took some big hits?
Jason Shapiro 4:05
You can say that.
James Connor 4:08
It’s a one of the things I’m always curious about when you talk to a professional traders, how do you recover from those hits? Because quite often, sometimes they can take you down and you don’t get up again, a
Jason Shapiro 4:19
fact? I mean, you have to you have to make a decision, you know, what am I trying to do here? And what is it going to take for me to do this? And can I accept the fact that it might not actually work in the end, you know? And if that’s the decision you make, then that’s sort of, you know, necessity becomes the mother of invention, so to speak, right for me, I really didn’t. I dedicated myself to the fact that I wanted to do this to be a money manager. And I didn’t have a lot of choices because I wasn’t getting offered any any kind of good jobs from anybody anyway. So, you know, I just sort of really worked hard and in developing my process and testing my process and both back testing and live testing my process and, and even once you have that you have to work hard towards being disciplined to that process. And over the years, you know, I’ve just kind of, I’ve just kind of done that, I guess it’s the best way to explain it.
James Connor 5:28
I spoke to Jim Rogers recently, who was featured in the first Market Wizards book. And one of the things I asked him a lot when he was talking about some of his trades. He said he learned a lot more from his losing trades than he did from his profitable trades. Is that the same with you?
Jason Shapiro 5:45
Know, 100%, I think you always learn much more from failure than you do from success.
James Connor 5:50
And is there any good war stories that you want to communicate?
Jason Shapiro 5:55
I mean, I can give you hundreds of them. But, you know, I think one of the ones I talked about a lot was the second half of 99. Me trying to be a very contrarian pick a very contrarian approach to all this, you know, we were we were at a time when, you know, if you went out to lunch, or whatever everybody at the restaurant was talking about how much money they were making in their AOL stock and their JDSU stock and their Cisco stock or whatever it was, and me being trying to be contrarian. I’m trying to fade that I’m trying to short that. And while ultimately it was the right trade, if you were six months too early, you know, the NASDAQ rallied another 50% in those six months, right? So the lesson is, you know, what I learned about being contrarian is you have to be patient about being contrarian, right? You have to be very, very patient, when you’re trying to find market highs and market lows, you have to be extremely patient about it. Because if you’re too early, you can get absolutely run over, which is okay too. But what it means you have to watch your risk management, you know, I mean, you can be early, it can be wrong, but just don’t lose a lot of money doing that, otherwise, you’re not going to be around. So you have to use, you know, risk management, you have to stop out of your losses and all that type of stuff. You can’t be stubborn.
James Connor 7:15
You mentioned 1999. And I believe one of the hedge fund managers who was very well known at that time was Julian Robertson, he started a product called Tiger. And I think he was also very short the market at that time, and he took a massive loss, and he ended up shutting down that’s truly did. And how many assets do you currently trade.
Jason Shapiro 7:38
So I trade all the US futures markets that have liquidity. So there are, I believe, a total of 37 that I can get involved in, I trade one process across those 37 markets. So it’s not like I’m trading all 37. At the same time I trade it when my one process hits, you know, I tend to look at it like I’m counting cards on 37 different tables, and when one of the tables gets a high card count. And that’s where I get involved.
James Connor 8:05
So once again, you don’t trade equities, you don’t trade bonds, strictly futures.
Jason Shapiro 8:09
I trade the equity index futures, I trade the bond futures, and the currency futures and then a whole bunch of the commodity futures. But I do not trade individual equities now. So
James Connor 8:20
let’s talk about this process that you have developed over the years. How exactly does it work?
Jason Shapiro 8:25
So it’s kind of based on the concept of crowded markets, obviously, when way too many people are leaning to one side, it implies to me that the risk reward is to go the other way. And there’s a difference between a way too many people are leaning to one side. And the concept of this asset has gone up a lot. Just because an asset has gone up a lot does not necessarily mean that way too many people are leaning towards one side, right. And it’s a difference to me between price being the discounting factor, or positioning being the discounting factor. And I look into this positioning being the discounting factor. So if I’m looking to let’s say short, something, I’m not looking at as well, this asset has gone up a lot. So I’m going to short it, I look at it more like there are way too many people that are long this asset here, so I’m looking to short it. And that’s kind of how I have adapted my my contrarian approach to really function and be more of a function of positioning rather than price.
James Connor 9:32
And when you talk about people You mean other futures traders? Yes. So let’s take all of this information Jameson and apply it to real case study. 2023 caught a lot of people off site as you are well aware. In one year ago in q1 of 2023. People were very negative. Everybody was calling for a recession. And of course, we had the regional banking crisis. What were your indicators or what was your process telling you at that time?
Jason Shapiro 9:59
So yes, earlier in 2023, my indicators were saying that people were away to short stocks. And therefore I was I was getting long the stock market. And that, as it turned out, doesn’t always work. But as it turned out, ended up being a very good trade for the certainly the first half of the year, which is when I was kind of closing out of it. So there’s no doubt that that was the case, what you say was the case, and it did show up in a in the positioning data as people were just way, way too short. So therefore, when the market did start to go the other way, with people being so short, that there’s a lot of juice for them to cover those shorts and run the market up quite high and a lot more than people would think that it can be run up. Which gets to my point of it’s about positioning positioning is what gives you the good risk reward, it doesn’t necessarily predict the future better than anything else. But it does give you good risk reward for a trade, which is really what what this is all about is getting into good risk reward situations, and then being very disciplined about managing those risk reward situations. Okay,
James Connor 11:06
so let’s spend a little more time on risk reward. So I’m assuming you use stops, at what level do you apply those stops? What sort of losses do you take?
Jason Shapiro 11:16
So the way that my process works is I am picking a market turn, right? So if I get along, because I think it’s the market my processes, this is the market turn, so buy it? Well, if we make a new low, then by definition, I didn’t pick the market turn because it’s at a new low. So that’s where I get stopped. Which makes sense, according to my process, right process picking a turn market making new low, so it’s not a turn. So I get out, and then I size my positions to that I know where I’m getting in, I know where I’m going to get stopped. And for me, personally, I’m risking about 70 basis points of my portfolio for each trade. So if I buy this thing, and it makes a new low, and I get stopped, okay, I lost 70 basis points. And I move on to the next one.
James Connor 12:06
Okay, so I’m glad you brought that up. So the the largest amount that you will allocate toward a trade is only 70 basis points.
Jason Shapiro 12:14
Yes, it’s not really the allocation sialic that the last allocation. So this is what I will lose, you know, the size of the trade is going to be adjusted by the difference between the entry and the stop. So if it’s closer to the stop, and I’ll have more on, and if it’s so far from the stop, then I will have less on but either way, if I get stopped, the goal is to lose 70 basis points on it. That’s not the goal. But I’m going to pick the loss, the goal is to have the loss be 70 basis points. And
James Connor 12:42
even though if your gut is trying to tell you something else, you adhere to those losses, like you take that loss and then move on to the next trade.
Jason Shapiro 12:51
Yeah, my gut does not come into into the equation.
James Connor 12:58
And so you said you traded 37 different assets? Yes. So you trade 37 different assets? What assets are you currently positioned?
Jason Shapiro 13:08
I am currently positioned in zero assets, right? I have no trades on right now. I’m sitting here waiting patiently. For a few trades, we have a signal to possibly short the stock market here. I need market confirmation before I do that. So I’m waiting for that which we haven’t gotten yet. I was signaled to get short gold here waiting for market confirmation. And we’re starting to have possibility of getting long some of the green markets. So I’m waiting for market confirmation on those. So I’m just sitting here, I do have a few things set up as possibilities. But I wait for the market to give me confirmation on when to do this.
James Connor 13:46
And when you see you’re waiting for confirmation, like I’m really surprised, given the move we’ve seen in the s&p given the move we’ve seen in the NASDAQ. I thought you would be shorting this for sure. But what are the what are the indications that you’re waiting to see or to get confirmation from?
Jason Shapiro 14:02
So what I need to see is the news to come out. Let’s say I’m looking to short, the NASDAQ. I need news to come out that supports the bullish thesis. Okay. Great earnings from one of these big names or let’s call it a lower CPI this Thursday. Right? The lower inflation has been bullish bonds which has given fuel to the stock market going up. That’s what I believe. So let’s see the CPI comes in very favorable, and bonds go up again. and the NASDAQ probably goes up on that. But by the end of the day it fails and closes down in the absence of any other kind of bearish news. That’s the confirmation to make when the market no longer goes up on news that you’d be making it go up. That for me is the confirmation that I need before I will put on a trade and that sometimes I have markets that are showing very crowded and I don’t get that confirmation for weeks or even months and Sometimes I do in the trade doesn’t work anyway. But Part A big part of what I do is being patient and not getting in front of myself. And what’s
James Connor 15:10
the most you will allocate toward one trade? Let’s just say for example, if you have a million dollars, how much and you you have a, your processes telling you that the market is due for a pullback? How much will you allocate toward that one trade? Again,
Jason Shapiro 15:25
it’s just based on the difference between my entry and my stop, you know, a, here’s my entry, here’s my stop, if I get stopped out, my goal is to lose 70 basis points on that trade if I get stopped. So that’s how my allocation works.
James Connor 15:39
So once again, the whole idea is because your losses are so small, you can live to fight many other days. That’s
Jason Shapiro 15:47
correct. And when I catch one, right, you know, it can be very big, and it will make up for five or six losses. So I don’t have to have anything better than a 40% win rate to make good returns over time. Okay.
James Connor 16:00
And so when you talk about win rates, how long will you keep a trade on four? Is there an average duration that you keep a trade on for the
Jason Shapiro 16:08
average, about two to three months? It varies, but it’s not up to me. Again, it’s up to my process. So if I’m buying something, because people are super, super short, then when the data shows that they are no longer short, that’s when I will take profit, that usually tends to take about two to three months. But sometimes, I’ve had friends that have just lasted a couple of weeks. And I’ve had winning trades that have actually lasted over a year, but typically it tends to be about two to three months.
James Connor 16:33
And just to review where you stand right now in 2024. You have zero positions on you think the market might be a little toppy, if you will, but you’re not getting confirmation yet from any of your indicators to short, the s&p or the NASDAQ.
Jason Shapiro 16:49
I don’t actually think that the market is Toppy. If you’re asking what I think I don’t think that the market is Toppy. But my positioning indicators are saying that people are getting a little bit too long or a lot a bit too long. And therefore when there is market confirmation, I will need to take a short position in in the stock market as a trade. But if you’re asking me what I think no, I don’t think so. I mean, I do what my processes to do. But Now personally, I hate it. And I hate I think shorting the stock market over time is the worst trade in the world anyway. So it really has to be something that is very, very, very convincing within my process for me to take a short trade on the stock market. And
James Connor 17:33
why do you say that? Why do you think it’s such a bad trade over the long term?
Jason Shapiro 17:38
Where was the s&p 500 100 years ago? And where is it now? I mean, you have upward drift in the stock market over time. So you’re fighting up for drift over time, which is which is a horrible thing to fight, right. And I personally believe you’re fighting upward drift, because you’re fighting population growth, right, which just creates more customers for these companies to sell to to increase the revenues in their profits, right? You’re fighting inflation, which is always there, right? I’m not saying high inflation, but some level of inflation is always going to be there. And therefore, again, revenues go up just based on inflation, you can sell the same exact amount of stuff, you know, you’re gonna have more revenues just because of inflation. And you’re fighting, you know, the human spirit, which in other words, means you’re fighting productivity. So which has always gone up, right, as long as people are incentivized to squeeze more money out of what they’re doing, then they’re gonna find productivity gains. And that’s not going away until you take the motivation away, which is long as we have sort of a semi free market system. You’re not going to take that away. So you’re fighting those three things, which are not going away. So yeah, I think shorting the stock market is just over time, the worst trade that’s ever been invented. And it’s not to say, I don’t take shorts on the stock market, sometimes I do. But I do encourage people a lot to not do that. You know, if you really think the stock market’s going down, then then don’t be long. Right? But you don’t have to be short, you know, and if the market keeps going up, then you’ll miss out on making some money, but at least you won’t lose money. Right? And if the market does, in fact, go down, what time has told us is if you sold out up there and it goes down, well, that gives you reason to buy it again. Right? I mean, that’s what’s you made more money. You know, people talk about all the money they made shorting the stock market in 2008. You made more money, just buying that whole dip, right buying 2008 Buying 2009 Right? As it turns out, were just incredible levels to be buying the stock market. So you’ve actually made more money buying that dip than you ever would have made selling it. And I can tell you that if you were good enough, if lucky enough To to have sold during the the Oh, a crash and all that, I can promise you that wasn’t the last time you you shorted the stock market, you’ve probably been shorting and ever since that as well. And so you’ve you’ve given that back and more most likely. So that’s kind of how I feel about from 99% of the people that that that’s kind of how I feel about shorting the stock market. So
James Connor 20:20
that’s a good overview of what you think of equities. Now, what about bonds, we’ve seen a lot of volatility here in the past year, 10 years gone from five and a half down to under four, it’s now above 4%. But any views on bonds?
Jason Shapiro 20:34
I don’t have a big view on bonds here. You know, I think that that the clearer macro view is that you want to play, you know, the steep inner kind of thing. And that, therefore, you want to short, the long end of the curve, but it strikes me as almost so obvious that it’s not going to work, right? That’s my general feel for that trade, right? All the macro people I know and talk to want to put on that trade, and it continues to not work. And it just feels like to me, it’s it’s gonna continue to not work. That’s not a fundamental view on the economy or anything. It’s just a psychological view on positioning and how people are approaching the markets right now.
James Connor 21:18
So once again, you’re taking the other side of the trade, that contrarian approach
Jason Shapiro 21:22
I’m taking, I’m not taking the other side of the trade, but I’m not putting that trade on. But my process doesn’t allow me to put that trade on anyway, which is how it keeps me out of trouble. But there’s just something there that strikes me as strange. You know, we can sit here and talk a million all day long about how it’s insane that the market is pricing in six interest rate cuts next year, and how that’s crazy. And now there’s no way they can do that. And that may be very true. But it seems just so obvious to me that you know, that it’s not going to work. Now,
James Connor 21:53
I saw you post something earlier this week on Nvidia. What are the top performing names in the s&p last year?
Jason Shapiro 22:01
The top performing name in the s&p?
James Connor 22:03
How much was it up? Exactly?
Jason Shapiro 22:06
I think it was 250% or something like that.
James Connor 22:10
Anyhow, and I’m bringing it up because you were talking about an individual that kept shorting it. And maybe you can just tell us what are your views on that? And shorting invidious specifically?
Jason Shapiro 22:21
I think that’s what people like to do. You know, they like to short the things that go up the most. And I think that’s the exact opposite of what you really want to do over time. What work once in a while, sure. But over time, the you want to be buying strength and selling weakness, not selling strength and buying weakness, you know, the markets are smarter than you and smarter than me and smarter than everybody because the markets are everybody’s intelligence as a whole put into one thing, right. So you know, if you were shorting the video last year, because it was going up so much, you know, as a lot of people were trying to do you got what was coming to you? I think so. Yeah, I mean, the videos on new highs today and just for the record, that what you bring up is that I put something on the video because that guy who was shorting the video a year has now turned it and gotten long. And I was saying that could be the top Well, as it turned out wrong. I was because the video rip today and in many videos on new all time high. So maybe this guy is actually just learning that, hey, being bullish is a hell of a lot easier than being bearish.
James Connor 23:20
Yeah, yeah, I guess time will tell. But it reminds me of another situation. If you go back two or three years ago, it was Tesla. Remember when everybody when everybody in the world was wanting to short Tesla, like there was the the narrative around it was still negative. And people just got their faces your plot.
Jason Shapiro 23:37
It’s all positioning, man. That’s what it is. That’s what it’s all about.
James Connor 23:40
So we talked about equities you touched on bonds. What did you say about gold?
Jason Shapiro 23:45
I’m looking to get short. But you know, people have gotten way too involved in gold. And we did have a gold buy back earlier in the year in October in early October, where people were way too short. But obviously this move up has gotten them out of those shorts. And it’s actually got I’m not chasing the long so if anything, I would be shorting it, but I certainly wouldn’t be be long it which again, doesn’t mean that it can’t go up here, right? The markets can do whatever they want to do. But from a risk reward perspective, from the way that I measure risk reward. I wouldn’t be long gold here.
James Connor 24:13
Yeah. What about oil?
Jason Shapiro 24:14
I don’t like oil either. You know, from from a positioning point of view, we actually have a very strange situation where usually, as markets go down, people are getting short. And as markets go up, people are getting long. They’re chasing the trend. But like in unleaded gas right now we have one of the largest long positions in history even though I’m going to guess when going down so we’ve been buying this dip the whole way down. Seems like everybody’s trying to bottom fish the energies here so I I’m not a proponent for being long energies here yet. Doesn’t mean it can’t go up. They just went up last week, but they’ve come right back down and we’re gonna test the lows here again. So I don’t think that there’s a sustainable move up here and you can trade it obviously, but I don’t see energies as being a great sustainable move up here.
James Connor 24:57
I’m always amazed at the volatility As in the oil market, like it’s one of the largest commodity markets in the world. And yet, it’s nothing for to move four or 5% in any given day. And we’ve seen that a lot in the past year.
Jason Shapiro 25:10
You certainly do. I mean, look what you have, though you have wars going on, you know, boats shooting at each other, and shipping lanes going down. And so yeah, it’s a volatile one. That’s for sure.
James Connor 25:22
So Jason, as we wrap up here, I want to ask you a couple of questions just about trading in general. And I guess the first one is, what are the characteristics that make a great trader? For a successful trader? Maybe that’s a better question.
Jason Shapiro 25:36
I think the thought processes has to be in terms of years, instead of days, you have to be thinking in terms of earning returns over a number of years, right. And as you do that, you’ll realize that one trade doesn’t really make that much of a difference, right? Could be wrong, it could be right, which goes into really what I think is also very important, not caring about being wrong, or being right. You know, reducing your ego, it’s not about you being wrong, or being right, you’re gonna be wrong all the time. You’re gonna be right, sometimes you’re gonna be wrong sometimes as defined by a profitable or not profitable trade. But you have to be okay with being wrong, hey, I’m wrong, I stopped out, I get out, whatever, you know, and sometimes it’s, Hey, I’m wrong, I stopped out, and that was the low and then the thing goes up, and oh, my God, you know what I mean? But you have to put that all out your mind. Right? It you have to focus on on risk reward, you have to focus on the idea that you, you cannot see the future, I promise you, right, nobody can, right. So trying to trade by predicting the future is going to be dangerous. A and D, then it gets you into the whole ego thing of right and wrong. While I thought I could see the future, and the market is not doing what I thought it was going to do. So I just have to wait until the market sees what I’m seeing. Well, no, that’s the ego and that’s gonna kill you. So I think a lack of ego in that terms is, is extremely important to open mind, lack of ego,
James Connor 27:00
mind, lack of ego. And what about discipline?
Jason Shapiro 27:04
Well, discipline clearly and fits right into those things, right? Discipline has to be Hey, I was wrong. So I just get out, right, pick my last move on, right? That discipline has to be there, no question about it. And that can all be held by building a process that you follow, right? And you can build the process on anything you want and your belief system of how markets work builds your process based on that. But your process will help keep you very disciplined. I don’t like to take losses. I don’t like to cut out but my processes cut out. I cut out. That’s it. I take a loss. I move on.
James Connor 27:34
And I guess that reminds me of another question I want to ask you, like I said you were featured in a no Market Wizards. And I would highly suggest any of our viewers to check that book out. And also the other two books that were written by Jack Schwager Market Wizards. But are there any traders in those books that you really admire or any trader, any of those traders that you learned from over the years? Oh,
Jason Shapiro 27:57
yeah, I learned a lot from the market wizard series of books. I think he actually has five books. The first two, and Market Wizards one, Market Wizards two, and then hedge fund Market Wizards Stock Market Wizards was not really my thing, because I’m not a stock trader. But hedge fund Market Wizards in the first two. Certainly Michael Platt has great things to say in his interview in hedge fund Market Wizards, to me, the people in market which is one, the first bunch of people Michael Marcus, Bruce Kovner, Paul Tudor Jones, were extremely valuable to my thought processes, no question about it. I think that you read those three books and your your 90 and you take them to heart and you learn the lessons and you observe the lessons in the market that they’re talking about. You’re ahead of 95% of the people out there. Jason,
James Connor 28:47
that was a great discussion. I want to thank you very much for spending time with us today. If someone would like to learn more about you and the services that you offer, where can they go. So
Jason Shapiro 28:55
I mean, services on crowded market report.com, which you can learn all about what we do there. I also do YouTube videos under that same thing, which are all free crowded market report. And we have a Twitter handle crowded underscore MKT underscore RPT, I believe, which is on Twitter and I put some things on Twitter there, I try to put at least one thing a day kind of fan Twitter of what we’re looking at. And then we also recently just started the substack thing, which is a free newsletter, it gives you like, sort of a taste of what our bigger newsletter looks like, that’s all free, you can sign up for that and get the email and you know, sometimes we’ll put some charts on there as well to check out so those are all kinds of places that people can can check out and see if they like what we’re doing here. And hopefully it can help them. Help them improve what they’re doing, which is really the goal of what we’re trying to do here. Right. I’m not here to say trade like me, you know, follow me, you know, I’m here to say everybody has to treat their own way but maybe the stuff that I’m looking at can help you improve what you’re doing.
James Connor 29:55
Very good points. Listen, I want to thank you very much now for to our next discussion.
Jason Shapiro 30:01
Great man, thanks a lot.
James Connor 30:02
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