Are the U.S. and global markets on the edge of a massive regime change? In this high-impact Part II, The Bear Traps Report founder and bestselling author Larry McDonald shares with James Connor a dire warning: U.S. sanctions and Trump’s tariffs are forcing global central banks to ditch U.S. treasuries for gold, the dollar is entering a structural decline, and a coming economic slowdown could pull the S&P 500 down to the low 4,000s. He breaks down where capital is headed and why gold, silver, oil, and emerging markets will be the big winners.
Then, Rocklinc’s Jonathan Wellum shares his thoughts on Larry’s interview and his firm’s portfolio strategy. He explains why he holds nearly 30% cash, favors investing in royalty companies over miners, and avoids European exposure in favor of select value stocks.
The conversation also tackles reshoring, structural inflation, Trump’s likely economic pivot, and what investors should do now to prepare.
If you missed part I of Larry’s insightful interview, go here: https://wealthion.com/larry-mcdonald-u-s-debt-crisis-will-break-the-market-part-i/
What would you like to see on Wealthion? We want to hear from you! Please take our poll here.
Investment Concerns? Get a free portfolio review with Wealthion’s endorsed financial advisors at https://bit.ly/41WYWTY
Hard Assets Alliance – The Best Way to Invest in Gold and Silver: https://www.hardassetsalliance.com/?aff=WTH
Larry McDonald 0:00
If you’re any emerging market country, and you just saw the United States for 10 years, hitting a lot of different countries over the head with sanctions, Trump is hitting everybody over the head with tariffs. And you own treasuries, and you’re really long treasuries. These, these big central banks are just diversified, diversifying their way away from treasuries. I welcome
James Connor 0:22
back to the second part of my interview with Larry McDonald, and stick around until the end. We’re going to have commentary out of Jonathan Willem about his views on what Larry had to say. Okay, so you’re bullish on oil, bullish on that gas. What about gold? You touched on it earlier?
Larry McDonald 0:40
Yeah, I’d rather be long good gold miners like Barrick here, gold is, is, you know, a lot of central banks are being forced to buy gold up here. Silver. I think the silver miners are really cheap, the S i L, E, T, F, the S i l, j, it. So you want to start looking at platinum, palladium, and things that are things that are in the hard asset community, but not as overcrowded as gold. Remember, gold’s a $16 trillion market cap. So if you’re a big central bank globally, and you see the White House sanctioning and tariffs and all this hostility, and you want to diversify your way out of dollars. You know, there’s a lot, there’s, there’s many other solutions right to to being in dollars. And so you know that that’s going to give you, you know, whole different portfolio, portfolio construction. So
James Connor 1:35
when you say the central banks are being forced to buy gold, it’s because of the policies coming out of Washington. Yes.
Larry McDonald 1:41
I mean the last, the last three, four years. I mean, the the Trump team is much more hostile in terms of tariffs and just hostile in general. The Biden team was hostile in the sense that, like, We confiscated Russian assets. I mean, if you’re any kind of and you know, you could say whatever you want about Russia, but if you’re any emerging market country, and you just saw the United States for 10 years, hitting a lot of different countries over the head with sanctions, Trump is hitting everybody over the head with tariffs. And you own treasuries, and you’re really long treasuries. These these big central banks are just diversified, diversifying their way away from treasuries, and you
James Connor 2:23
are recommending gold miners or producers because they’re trading at such a deep discount to the actual physical
Larry McDonald 2:29
Yes, and then for the minute even. But even if you look at just Barrick, Barrick or Newman or just priced Agnico, their true price to cash flow, their enterprise value to EBITDA. They’re still in the very low, low, low percentages, historically very rare area, and they’ve all delivered their balance sheets, I mean. And then on the oil side, Weatherford is trading right now. It a 3.8 billion valuation right their free cash flow yield on Weatherford, which is a oil services company, free cash flow yield of 550 million on a $3.8 billion market cap. They’re buying back like 15% of the public equity. I mean, those are when you get those types of free cash flow yields with the company buying back stock, it’s tremendous value. And there’s a lot of great value names in the in the in the gold miner sector,
James Connor 3:27
yeah, they are dirt cheap. It’s a sector I follow closely. But I’m just kind of wondering, though, is two points. First of all, you made mention the fact that the central banks continue to buy gold because they’re forced to, because of these they’re trying to position themselves against their US holdings, and I understand that. But at the same time, the stocks really aren’t moving. There’s a few names that are moving. Igniko has done very well. For example, Barrick and Newmont are, I would say, suffering because they don’t. Haven’t employed the same strategies that igniko has, but maybe the gold stocks are pricing in the real price of gold, which is significantly lower, and the price of gold is where it’s at. Now, let’s just say 3100 bucks an ounce, because it’s being taken higher by the central banks.
Larry McDonald 4:18
Well, you know, there’s some truth to what you’re saying in terms of sentiment, but what I think the bigger picture is, when you’ve gone through a two year period, maybe of a strong dollar with rate hikes and then tariffs drilling, driving the dollar up at late last year, that creates a bear market and commodities that strong dollar. If the dollar is really strong, you don’t need to have commodities. And so when you’re in a bear market in commodities, the hot money isn’t there yet. The tourists are not getting off, or have not been getting off the bus yet. They’re just starting to now. And so what happens is people this. In every great bull market, at the beginning of the energy bull market in 2020 people were long oil, and then they got long Exxon and Chevron, and then they got along the more tertiary, smaller companies. It’s the same thing here. You know, the first mover is the mothership of gold, and then you’ll see the big cap stocks move, and then the juniors. And that’s just the way sentiment works.
James Connor 5:25
And you mentioned silver, and I know a lot of people are very disappointed in the move of silver so far. Everybody keeps talking about the all time high of 50 bucks, which was set back in 2011 but if you look at it from a nominal point of view, that the real dollar value of silver should be, I don’t know, maybe 75 bucks. I’m throwing that number out there, but it’s been a massive disappointment. What are your thoughts on silver?
Larry McDonald 5:47
Yeah, so silver now is, I think, just now the probability like we’re starting to see the silver miners start to outperform silver. We’re starting to see the Gold Silver ratio still around 90, but it’s close to last three or four weeks, close to breaking out. And it’s so as the Fed is now in a slower growth economy, and you potentially have a more dovish fed next year with Trump, right? Because Trump’s gonna have more control over the Fed. When you go into that environment, at some point, silver starts to outperform gold and the silver miners start to outperform. And now you have the solar upside. You’ve got the robotics upside it, and so you’ve got all these long term secular bullish things for silver, whether it be the macro element, the politics, or whether it be robotics, or whether, whether it be, you know, all kinds of solar innovations. So I just, I love the silver names here. You mean you get downside, I think of, you know, 15, 20% but with some of the silver miners, you get three to 10 baggers. And
James Connor 6:55
why do you think Trump’s going to have more control of the Fed?
Larry McDonald 6:59
Well, Powell’s term is up in the first quarter, early first quarter next year. And as everybody knows, Trump is not a big Powell fan. He, he hasn’t, you know, he hasn’t he, he’s actually been a little bit more nice to Paul this time, around than 2000 than the than the last regime, 2017 18. But you know, it’s just no, there’s no question that toward the end of the year, I think we’re going to have much more tax cuts, stimulus rate cuts, and maybe it’s a little early on silver. But in that environment, you know, silver is going to dramatically outperform gold. And that’s, that’s we saw in 2020 like every, every bull market. Still, the silver miners are up dramatically more than the gold miners, and silver is up dramatically more than gold.
James Connor 7:48
You touched on the US dollar and the US dollar, if we look at it versus, let’s look at the D, x, y comma, or the Dixie got as high as a 110 in January. Now it’s around 105, I think you mentioned a couple of times. You see the US dollar going a lot
Larry McDonald 8:05
lower. Oh yeah, this is, this is a, this is the big Corona, because you’ve got, you got the twin deficits, which have always been there, but, but the dollar was saved by rate hikes. The Fed were hiked rates violently, but when they did that interest now is because of all that front end of the yield curve, all those T bills with those 5% yields, your interest costs are a trillion bucks. So now you have a slowdown, you have higher interest costs, and you’ve got China stimulating in Europe on the fiscal side, fiscal expansion over there, and that’s a recipe for a really weak, weak dollar. And so that’s that’s and Trump, when you know, you talk to people in the Trump team, they really want a structurally weaker dollar. Because, you know, our manufacturing base in the United States, we’ve taken 5 million jobs out of the United States. We’ve shot gun them around the world. We’ve decimated the like. One of the lines in my book is, if you actually go through the Appalachian states, and you know the JV Vance territory of of the United States and and the rust belt, I mean, their life expectancy for 50 year old men is falling at the fastest pace in 20 years and has and it was before COVID And after COVID, it’s structural. It’s fathers that were, you know, had great jobs in in the fen manufacturing sector that are now working at pizza parlors or in the restaurant business, and they, they have to work three jobs to support their kids, and it’s just a real, you know, horror show for middle class families. And that’s, that’s why, you know, that’s why Trump was elected. And, you know, those, those Rust Belt states, put Trump in office. And
James Connor 9:46
I’m sorry when you said 5 million jobs have left the US over what time period
Larry McDonald 9:51
that’s, you know, last, like 30 years where, you know, we globalized. We had incredibly powerful. Uh, trade, trade lanes and trade systems around the United States and and we became a country that was completely dependent on global manufacturing. Now both Republicans and Democrats want to reshore jobs. That’s really inflationary. And so that gets you into that’s another secular, you know, kind of inflationary force that’s going to be with us.
James Connor 10:24
So, Larry, I want to summarize a lot of the points you made. So you’re looking for a big slowdown in the US. That’s and I think you said it’s going to head into a recession. We’re going to see a big pullback in the s, p, did you say down to 4000 or 3500
Larry McDonald 10:40
I’m thinking of low fours. Yeah, 440 4142
James Connor 10:44
okay, and in this type of, and you think a lot of that money in the US is going to flow over to Europe, so sell the US. Get long Europe. You also want to get long hard assets, precious metals, gold, silver, palladium, platinum, oil and and
Larry McDonald 11:02
emerging markets like Brazil’s got an election coming up next year, and if you get a market friendly candidate there with a commodity producing country, I mean, that’s that market, about 50%
James Connor 11:14
and seeing how You’re talking about emerging markets, what about Canada?
Larry McDonald 11:22
I mean, I wouldn’t call Canada an emerging market, but, you know, oil producing country, and, you know, I think, above all, the Canadian natural gas names, tourmaline, you know, if, if, if Kearney wins, it’s not that bad for, you know, for, for natural gas in Canada. But you know, if you really have a market friendly solution in Canada, then your your natural gas needs are going to be up a lot, a lot.
James Connor 11:51
No, I refer to it as an emerging market because in the last 10 years, which is corresponds to the amount of time the liberal government’s been in office, our economy has not grown. I think it’s grown about 1% okay, it’s things have not been too good in Canada. All right. So I want to talk about your book, How to listen when markets speak. You brought it up a few times, but there’s a lot of interesting insights in here from many interesting people. Maybe you can just touch on that,
Larry McDonald 12:20
yeah, so we sat down with, you know, when I what I’ve tried to do is, is democratize information, and in the chat we work with, I’d say 80% of our revenues are hedge funds, mutual funds and pension funds, and the other 20% are large families and wealth managers. And what I noticed over the years, because I started off on the retail side of the business, it’s just disgusting the way, you know, kind of the big banks would take the best ideas, the best research, give it out to the institutions, and eventually it makes its way toward retail. And so I think that’s a game that’s gone on for a long time. And so we created our Bloomberg chat, our bear traps report, to try to democratize information and level that playing field. And in the book, we sat down with David Tepper, Charlie Munger. It’s David einworn, some really incredible investors, and the whole goal of the book was kind of like to bring you know that investor behind the scenes as to what you know, how the institutional investors look at the world, how, how they look at risk, how they look at reward. And so, yeah, I appreciate you having having us on and
James Connor 13:31
do you have any plans on coming to Toronto in the near future?
Larry McDonald 13:35
Yeah, we did. Mackenzie investments invited us up there last summer for you know, the old secret is, because the publishing houses, you make about 10 times more on the speaking tour than you do writing the book, and so we’ve been getting a lot of different speaking engagements around the world. So yeah, I look forward to come back, coming back hopefully in
James Connor 13:53
the fall. Yeah, we’d love to spend some time with you. Well, listen, that was a great discussion. Larry, and I want to thank you very much for spending time with us. If somebody would like to learn more about your book and you’ve written other books, but or follow you online. Where can they go? Well, I
Larry McDonald 14:06
think, you know, at convert bond on Twitter, x and then, I guess, info at the bear traps report.com info at the bear traps report.com reach out to us. We’ll get you on our either in our Discord room, or we’ll get you on the turning point our weekly publication, and we’ll kind of walk through and democratize information together. We want to give investors a lens on a buy side conversation.
James Connor 14:33
Larry, once again, thank you. Thanks. James, appreciate it. Jonathan, thank you very much for joining us. How are things in Toronto?
Jonathan Wellum 14:42
Well, not too bad, not too bad. We’re looking forward to better weather and and hopefully a new prime minister at the end of the month, we’ll
James Connor 14:51
see. Yes, it’s interesting times. So you just sat in and listened to my discussion with Larry McDonald. I’m curious to what your views. Were. And just to summarize for our viewers, he’s very negative on the US economy. He’s looking for not only a contraction, but a recession in the US, big pullback in the s, p, I believe he said down to the 4000 level. He is suggesting investors get long a lot of hard assets or real assets, gold, silver, oil, not gas, uranium, palladium, platinum. What are your views on that? Yeah,
Jonathan Wellum 15:25
there’s much that I found very interesting listening to Larry. He’s excellent in terms of his analysis, especially in the macro economic areas. And certainly the area that he really zeroed in on was the debt levels. And he talked a little bit about that in terms of the US $1 trillion now their interest costs on a $5 trillion revenue. So you’re talking 20% of their revenue now is going towards interest costs, which, again, is not sustainable. And I think the other point that he that he made, along with the debt issue, was there’s going to be 1516, 17 trillion that has to be rolled over in the next 1216, months or so, which is just a massive amount of debt. So what are they going to do with that? So I think, yeah, clearly, the pressure to try to get interest rates down is a big issue and and with all of the uncertainty and so on, I think that, again, lower economic growth, we’re seeing some earnings, you know, the companies coming back. And I think his point that, you know, the S, p5, 100 earnings are probably overstated somewhat, and we could, we could see those come off, and then that would also take the market down. That would the benefit, the benefit, there would be yields coming off. And so we see some of that also in terms of, we’re looking at the, you know, the stock market and where we’re investing, we’re trying to, again, take advantage of that, and with it, if that does parlay into a lower US dollar, then, yeah, the hard assets is going to be the place you want to be. We are in some of those hard assets that he talked about. So, yeah, so I agree with quite a bit of, you know, quite a bit of his analysis. I think it’s excellent. I’m not so sure, you know, European trade, I guess I look over at Europe and I realize there are some very undervalued companies. I think that’s what he was pointing out. Go to there, go to Europe, find companies that are undervalued, that you can play in the hard, hard asset sector. I think that’s great just to go to Europe and buy the indexes. And I’m not, I’m not as convinced of that, but I know what he’s saying is, you know, there’s some good values over there. And if you go picking and you’re selective, I think you can find some great opportunities and better valuations than probably there are right now in North America.
James Connor 17:25
Yes, I know what I understand what you’re saying about Europe, because I’ve never heard anything good about Europe from an economic point of view. With regard to Germany, everything I hear is how bad the economy is. But yet here, the DAX is at 15% on the year it’s trading out on your all time highs. The FTSE is doing the same sort of thing. So I’m really surprised to see all this money flow into Europe given how bad things are economically.
Jonathan Wellum 17:50
Yeah, and I think that’s, as you know, being in the capital markets, as as long as you have, as long as my as well as myself, that sometimes the stock market will outperform the the economies themselves, right? And that’s sort of the ironic thing. And so even though the economy might not be doing that well, if you can find great companies that are trading at low valuations that have been beaten down, sometimes you can perform quite well. And I think that’s really what he was talking about, also, because he was very much talking about certain sectors and businesses that like bhp and so forth, that are trading at very low valuations. Yeah,
James Connor 18:24
and you mentioned the fact that the US has all this debt. And once again, just to recap, for people who didn’t see the first part of this interview, but the US has $37 trillion in debt. When Trump first came into the power in 2016 or during his first term, it was around 18 trillion. So there’s been a massive shift, or massive growth in the level of debt at the federal level. And one of the big issues that the federal government is facing now is they got to refinance this debt. Their interest expenses are well over a trillion dollars. It’s only going to explode. So what they’re trying to do now is bring this economy to a screeching halt, slow it down, so they can slow inflation down also, and bring interest rates down in the process. And then, therefore, when they go to refinance, they’re going to be able to do it at lower rates.
Jonathan Wellum 19:11
Yeah, term out the debt, so they can actually extend the debt out into longer periods of time, 510, years, which they should have been doing when they had these record low rates. So again, you just look at just grossing confidence in some of the governments. I mean, similar to what we see up here in Canada, but the Treasury decisions that were made under the Biden regime, there were just very, very poor decisions. Now,
James Connor 19:33
even though you are based in Toronto, you invest a lot of money in the US. Maybe you can just give us an overview of how you and your team are investing money right now for your investors, and what percent of cash Are you currently holding?
Jonathan Wellum 19:48
Sure, I mean, because we’re next to the US, and it’s the most, you know, the largest, most dynamic economy in the world, definitely, the majority of our money is going down into US based businesses, and we have a couple of companies that are based in. Europe also, but again, largely global businesses. What we’re doing is we’re more value investors, and so we buy individual stocks, and so we’re actually trying to look at certain sectors that we think are advantaged trading at reasonable valuations and not not in the stratosphere. So we’re looking at areas, if we’re looking, say, for example, in manufacturing industrial we’ll be looking at, you know, companies like Snyder electric, which provides parts and equipment and for data centers, for building up of the electrical utility grid and so forth. We have some exposure to some oil and gas. And Larry was talking about that, he’s quite right. The free cash flow yields, and some of the energy companies are really high. We don’t have a lot in the energy but we do have some in there, because it is fairly cheap. And again, if you get into inflation, stagflation, you can do quite well in that sector. We have some in technology. Again, I don’t think that technology trade is dead. I think you need to be very selective on the companies that you’re purchasing companies that reasonable valuations. And in fact, what we’re trying to do is, if the NASDAQ really were to come off, what kind of companies would we like to buy? We have a buy list that, you know, if we get another 20 25% off some of these companies, we’d actually pick them up. So again, technology is not going to disappear. And then we also own some of the gold and silver exposure, which Larry talked about also, and we’ve been there now for a number of years, again, because of the monetary situation, because of the different governments around the world shedding some of their treasuries and central banks buying the gold, but we typically are going to buy some of the royalty companies, which have done quite Well here, Franco, Nevada, wheat and precious metals, Royal Gold, sandstorm, etc, Cisco, royalties. And we have some of the miners. And I really, you know, he made a number a number of times. He pointed out that the miners are cheap, and they definitely are. But I do think you have to be incredibly selective in what you might which miners you are buying. And so I think as investors, as you know, look at this space, like gold miners, you’ve got to go companies that have a history of capital allocation discipline. It might be the place for some investors just to pick up an ETF where you’re going to get a number of miners. It’s hard to pick individual miners unless you’re really following great analysts and and people that are that are selecting them because they’re so volatile and you’ve got political got political risk and all sorts of different risks that can come up with individual minds. We own egg Nico. We’ve, you know, Sean Boyd’s an amazing executive, and they run that company while pan America silver. We own mag silver, so we do have a couple of miners, but not a large portion of our book. We’ve stuck more to the the royalty companies, because they’re little safer, more diversified, cash flow oriented, and give us good upside. And I think people should also know that the royalty companies, if you take Wheaton or a Cisco, just as a couple of examples, their organic growth. In other words, they’re just the growth on new royalty streams coming on and growing the you know, the miners that they’re getting the royalties from are also growing. They’ve got eight to 10% organic growth, and that’s without any change in the underlying commodity prices. So just there’s growth in these companies are actually spending. If you get growth in the commodity of course, my goodness, you can get a real lift. So yes, that’s, that’s the way we approach it.
James Connor 23:21
You didn’t tell me your cash position. Oh,
Jonathan Wellum 23:23
yeah, no, we’re sitting around 27% cash. And we do that because the market, as Larry pointed out in his presentation, it’s not cheap. I mean, I think people have to get their minds around it’s not cheap, particularly if we’re going into a slower economy and tariffs and all of the uncertainty, and, you know, Warren Buffett, I think, is a good barometer to carry around a little more cash. Yeah, you’re only going to make 234, percent of that money, but it’s not going to go down. And it gives you firepower, and that it hasn’t hurt our performance that much, really, in terms of carrying the extra cash, because we’re stock pickers, and we’ve picked some good businesses that have done well. But you know, if the market drops, you can pounce, and we’ve got companies that we want to buy, and so it gives you a real leg up. And I think that’s always important for investors. Have have a little bit of powder dry, hold some money back and and then buy big time if you get a real drop in one of your favorite companies or in the market in general.
James Connor 24:20
So you do have concerns about the US economy and the US stock market. Are you expecting a significant pullback this year, like, similar to Larry’s?
Jonathan Wellum 24:28
Yeah. I mean, I understand Larry’s argument, and I think that’s quite possible that it could, it could slip. I’m a little bit my own, our own, you know, position at rocklink is I’m a little more optimistic in terms of the US economy. Now, in the short run, look, we got the tariffs. They’re dealing with the Biden spending craze at the end of his term, and they’ve got to rein in that deficit, and Doge is cutting jobs and so forth. So there’s a number of things that I think will pull back some of the growth in the US that’s not. A bad thing, though, if it’s reallocating the economy back into more the private sector and shrinking some of the public sector, and not wasting the money. I mean, you’ve seen some of the waste that’s going on, so that’s not a bad thing, but I think it can lead to slower growth, but lower regulations, lower taxes, bringing more capital into your country, reassuring some of that, yeah, might be a little more, might be a little bit more inflationary, but you’re going to drive a much stronger economy. And I think that the policies of Donald Trump, his economic policies, are very, very sound. So, you know, I actually like what he’s doing. It’s not going to be easy, though, and look, there’s going to be some hiccups, and there’s going to be some challenges. And I think the way he’s handled tariffs has not been optimal. I understand what he’s trying to do, but as a being in Canada and recipient of some of his bombastic comments, you know, it’s not, I think the best way to go about the tariff analysis, but that’s, that’s Donald Trump. That’s the art of the deal. I think that’s what we’re in for. And, you know, the world just has to adjust to it and and, you know, we invest around it, basically. So
James Connor 26:07
we started this conversation with you, mentioning that there’s a federal election going on in Canada. Any thoughts?
Jonathan Wellum 26:16
Well, I’m praying. I’m a man of faith, and I’m praying aggressively that the Liberal government does not get re elected, and the NDP party is also as far away as possible. So you can tell that I’m much more favorably inclined to the Conservative government. They’re not perfect, but they have an agenda, which is, I think, much more Canada. First centric Pierre polyv is articulating a much more rational program, and we cannot continue to can do the things that we’ve done the last nine to 10 years. And there’s no question that Mark Carney, the current prime minister, is inextricably linked to those policies, that that is his ideology, and to think he’s going to change the course from what Trudeau is doing, I think is incredibly naive, and so I think it’s very important that Canadians elect a different government, a government with a vision, a government that wants to bring capital back in the country, shrink taxes, shrink regulations, and also the size of government. That’s the only way forward if we’re going to turn this thing around and take advantage of the incredible wealth we have in this country.
James Connor 27:20
Yes, you and I share a lot of the similar viewpoints, but it is shocking that this government’s been in power for 10 years and our economy has grown by just over 1% it’s truly astounding.
Jonathan Wellum 27:33
Yeah, it may mean it. It is astounding given the tremendous wealth in this country. I mean, it’s what, we’re one of the wealthiest countries in the world. When you look at the natural resources and the endowments that we have in this country, I think Canada is a great country. We have an amazing history. We’ve got wonderful people and great assets. We just need incredibly better leadership. Jonathan, I
James Connor 27:53
want to thank you very much for spending time with us today and sharing your thoughts on what Larry had to say about the US economy and Europe, and if somebody would like to learn more about you and your firm, where can they go?
Jonathan Wellum 28:06
Yeah, just rock link.com rock link with A, C, so r, O, C, K, L, I, N, C, not with a K, they’re rocklink.com Just go to our website and and send us an email. There info@rocklink.com and and all of the information basically on our website there. And we’d love to talk to you, and we have a lot of clients that have come through and through wealthion, they’ve contacted us. We’ve sit down with them. It’s free, free in terms of sitting down and getting an analysis and and just hear, hear us out and develop, a long term financial plan, and we’d love to do that. Jonathan,
James Connor 28:43
once again, thank you. Thank
Jonathan Wellum 28:45
you very much.
