Markets are near all-time highs, volatily is back, debt levels are soaring, and economic uncertainty is growing — is now the right time to be fully invested? Anthony Scaramucci welcomes Rocklinc Investment Partners CEO Jonathan Wellum to unpack his value investing strategy, why he’s keeping 25% cash on hand, and how to protect and grow your wealth in an overheated market.
In This Speak Up Interview:
- Are stocks too expensive? What today’s prices signal for investors
- Why holding cash can be a smart move – Liquidity vs. fear-based selling
- The biggest risks in 2025 – Debt, inflation, and interest rates
- Buffett’s strategy for uncertain markets – Lessons from the best investors
- Where to find real value – Investing wisely when prices are stretched
- How to stay disciplined & avoid emotional investing mistakes
Watch now to learn how a professional and seasoned investor is navigating today’s ‘toppy’ market!
Investment Concerns? Get a free portfolio review with Wealthion’s endorsed financial advisors at https://bit.ly/3D2Ytpp
Jonathan Wellum 0:00
We haven’t had a downdraft in the market for a couple of years. We’ve had back to back 25% gains. And to think that we can’t have a 20 to 30 or 40% drop in the market, I think, is naive. Now I’m not just calling for that, but I’m just saying that you want to be, at least be positioned in companies that can weather that and have a little powder dry you. Anthony,
Anthony Scaramucci 0:25
welcome to speak up. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci on the wealthion network. I’m joined today by Jonathan Whelan. He’s the CEO of rocklink Investment Partners, and he’s a distinguished Canadian investment strategist. So we’ll talk a little bit about Canada with him, and congratulations, by the way, on winning that hockey game last night. But but in addition to that, he has been marked by deep commitment to fundamental analysis and risk management, and his principles have become a cornerstone of a phenomenal business, and we are both talking to you from a remote location. Jonathan’s a little bit less conspicuous than me, because he’s indoors, or both down here in the Cayman Islands. So we have a love affair, at least with the tropics, you and I. But Jonathan, let’s get right into it. If you don’t mind, let’s talk a little bit about where you see the market. Then I want to go into the geopolitical situation. Yeah.
Jonathan Wellum 1:19
I mean, from our perspective, as you know, Anthony, the markets are expensive overall, particularly the North American markets, the US market, and there’s a lot of geopolitical uncertainty. And so from our perspective, you know, we’re, we’re value investors, and what does that mean? We try to buy companies below, and, you know, below their intrinsic value, and we try to hold them for three to five years. So we’re not, you know, rapid fire, high turnover investors. And so when we look at the market, it’s a lot worse. It’s really hard to ferret out companies that are trading at attractive valuation, especially given critical situations, along with the, you know, the interest rate fluctuations over the last couple of years. So where we look at it, we just very careful keeping some cash around. We’re about 75% invested, 25% in cash. And then we have about 2025 main holdings that we have in terms of equities, where we’re trying to find companies that have great, long term franchises and are well positioned despite the challenges that we’re seeing in the market.
Anthony Scaramucci 2:17
So John of the 25% in cash. For me, sounds like you think we’re entering a bear market. So tell me, why 25% chance? Or maybe I’ve got my risk management tools wrong. I don’t know. You know, you know, the market goes up 75% of the time over the last 125 years. And I’m not saying we don’t go through corrections, but that seems like a lot of cash. So lot of cash. So give us the rationale. Well,
Jonathan Wellum 2:44
a couple of things. It depends on your clients, and so a lot of our clients are, you know, older clients, and they don’t necessarily want a lot of volatility. So some, some of the cash holding is really just to mitigate volatility for clients that don’t want any major downdrafts and in terms of their portfolio. So that’s one issue. The second issue really is just overall price to earnings ratios, price to free cash flow. They’re trading at very, very high valuations and and then the third thing would be geopolitical, just the uncertainty surrounding some of the adjustments that are taking place in the United States. We’re not exactly sure exactly what’s going to happen there with tariffs and and when we when we look around the world outside of the US, where you’ve had really more robust capital markets, things are not that great in Europe, they’re not that great in Japan, they’re not that great in China. There’s a lot of challenges. And so from our perspective, if we keep some powder dry, it doesn’t necessarily mean we won’t deploy it, but we’re only going to deploy it when we can find companies trading at good discounts, and then we can move quickly. So if we do get a major downdraft in the market, then we can deploy, you know, very rapidly. And you know, that’s just the way we manage money. And we typically outperform the market over the long term, over a three to five year period, pretty consistently, and just get more juice out of the companies we are investing in, but keeping a little bit a little bit to the side. But as I say, Part of that’s just our clientele. You know, there are some clients where we’d be fully invested. Others were, you know, we’re about half invested, but that’s based upon their risk tolerances and allocations. Well,
Anthony Scaramucci 4:17
just trying to provoke you actually, I mean, your principles are very similar to Warren Buffett. Let’s talk a little bit about him. He’s raised a lot of cash as well, and he’s been pretty, pretty much right every time the market gets to a little bit too high of a valuation relative to overall GDP, he has certain metrics in terms of earnings and and so things do seem to be right now. So if you don’t mind, let’s talk about both cases. Build me a bear case for the market right now and build me a bull case. What would people that are bears be missing with their pessimism? Well,
Jonathan Wellum 4:54
I think the bull case would be I think that the changes in the US. You know, Trump is able to cut the budget deficit, he’s able to get pound more money back into the private sector. You’ll be able to get capital invested so you actually can spur on economic growth. And other countries around the world are a little bit less intrusive in terms of the in terms of the economies. So I think the bull case would be, yeah, I mean, AI, development drives productivity. We get a little bit better control, again, on government spending, and we get a lot more money invested around the world that I think would could, could spur things on, but we’re even when I want to, even as I’m saying that to you, Anthony, I’m thinking myself, you know, there’s, that’s, that’s a long shot right now because we’re so stretched. I think the bear case is that we’ve got massive debt. I mean, I’ve been in the market for 35 years, and the debt to GDP ratio globally is, you know, it’s, you know, it’s 350% debt to GDP was, that was about 175 when I got it got invested, you know, years ago. And when you look at the budget deficits, I mean, look at the US, which is the most important economy in the world. The budget deficits like six 7% of GDP. The overall debt is 36 trillion and counting. So the whole situation is not sustainable. So something has to happen. I think that’s what a lot of people are looking at now, what will the US do? What will tariffs do? Will you be able to reposition some of the money to be able to cover the massive deficits? Can you cut the government back in size? These are, these are wide open issues, and it’s not going to be easy, and I think it’s this. I think that’s going to cause some uncertainty in the marketplace. And so I think that, you know, we haven’t had a downdraft in the market for a couple of years. We’ve had back to back 25% gains. And to think that we can’t have a 20 to 30 or 40% drop in the market, I think is naive. Now, not just calling for that, but I’m just saying that you want to be, at least be positioned in companies that can weather that and have a little powder dry. So I be again, not I’m a long term investor. I try to be an optimistic, optimistic person. You don’t make money by being a total pessimist, unless you’re a good short seller. But I do think that the debt situation and just the whole trade situation around the world is going to take some pain. We have to have some pain at some point we’ve had a party for much too long,
Anthony Scaramucci 7:22
and just, let’s add two more sentences to that about interest rates. So interest rates have been, let’s say, sticky upwards. The Fed lowered rates a few times last year, but the indication is that they really can’t lower rates right now, the inflation numbers are hot. Do I have that wrong, sir, or do you think the Fed is in a little bit of trouble here? A little bit of a tight box on inflation?
Jonathan Wellum 7:48
Yeah, I think the Fed’s between a rock and a hard place. I do think that it’s going to be difficult to pull the rates down. I think the other issue, as you know, is that you got this massive refunding of debt. I mean, was it 10 trillion this year? The US has got to roll over the next number of years. It’s like 25 trillion. So you’ve got a lot of short term debt. And I just don’t think that the market’s naive enough to say, you know, we’re gonna, we’re gonna buy all this debt at, you know, 3% they want more. And so I do think that’s that’s a big issue the refinancing. That’s why, when the Fed has been dropping rates over the last year, actually, we’ve seen longer rates, middle to longer term rates actually go up. And I think that’s because we are at a stretch point and people aren’t buying it. That just isn’t going to be an easy thing to get out of the Fed. As you know, if the Fed just walks in and starts buying treasuries again, then we’re going to have a real inflation problem. It’s just too much money in the system. So that’s why I think we’re at a point where we’ve taken this about as far as we can. Something has to break. I don’t know what that’s going to be. I don’t know when it’s going to happen, but as an investor, I want to make sure I’m in companies that won’t be as vulnerable to that and have some flexibility in terms of our cash positions.
Anthony Scaramucci 8:59
Okay, incredibly well said. I guess before I go to the audience questions, Jonathan, I want to talk about the mag seven for a second. Because even though you’re a value investor, I think you’d like some of them, like Amazon. So So tell us a little bit about the mag seven. Any concerns there in terms of their percentage of market capitalization, the overall s, p, etc, the concentration issue,
Jonathan Wellum 9:22
yeah, there’s no question that’s going to be an issue, and I think people should be focused on it. And they the mag seven, as you say, are take up a massive amount of market cap, and they have been spurred on a little bit more recently by AI. We don’t exactly know the benefits of AI. Yes, it’s going to make some changes. But is it all being priced in? Is it too much being priced in? And so you do run those risks? You know, the Microsofts of the world and Facebook are met and so forth. With the one that we have kept reasonable position in is Amazon, and that’s largely because of its massive retail business and its AWS. There’s a lot of things going. On an Amazon we look at it as a price to sales. It’s not outlandish. It’s not outrageous. They do have a fair bit of pricing power, and so we look at that as a safer one, so that we can still sort of have some money in the game, so to speak. We did have a lot more in Apple, and that’s become a much smaller percentage of our assets. We sort of let that come down. They’re having a tough time growing. It’s a fantastic, amazing franchise, as you know, but growing off of their base is going to be difficult, and that’s always the issue of the law of large numbers is, as you know very well, that you just can’t continue 20, 25% growth type of thing. So yeah, so we’re a little bit nervous about that mag seven, and therefore our weighting in is quite low, and we’re looking below the market now to find great companies that are trading at a fraction of the of the cash flow get cash flow rates really. We really like free cash flow yields. That’s what we focus a lot of our time on. For most companies, unless they’re in the mining industry, and of course, you’re looking at net asset value and other valuation metrics. Listen,
Anthony Scaramucci 11:02
it’s just incredible the scale of these companies i i wrote an essay in 2010 when Apple got the $300 billion I said, Okay, well, how is it going to get to $500 billion just not going to happen. Of course, I got that incredibly wrong, but, but I, but I hear you and I, and I, I agree with the sentiment. I just think it’s a it’s harder today to justify a lot of these valuations. Let’s go to some audience questions. Sure. What core investing principles from Buffett do you rely on? This is It looks like one of your fans, Suzanne from Canada.
Jonathan Wellum 11:41
Yeah, we have a lot of admiration for Buffett when I got in the business. So just say something really quickly. Or Anthony, back in 1990 the fellow that brought me into the investment industry, Michael Lee chin, he was a Buffett fan from the mid 80s. And so we went down to the annual meeting. I’ve been to probably 18 of them over the years and and so have a lot of respect for Buffett. I think the principles are there is you try to look for businesses that have a moat. In other words, there’s a protection around them. They have a consistent clientele, they have pricing power in their business, and then they’re trading below what he would say, intrinsic value. So you’d be able to buy them below a market valuation. Typically, we’re looking at free cash flow, so we would do a discounted free cash flow model, but try to be very conservative on that, and buy them when other people don’t like them, so that you know, you try your best to when there’s a cheery consensus, be careful what you’re paying, and try to pay as little as possible in those businesses. But I think the big issue is a moat dependable business. Great, of course, great management, also in the companies. Well, it’s
Anthony Scaramucci 12:45
the 30th anniversary of Roger lowenstein’s book, The making of the American capitalist. And so I reread that this past week, and I would implore people, if they like Warren Buffett, to read it. And oh, by the way, Jonathan, he was about 62, years old, which is roughly you’re my age when that book was written. And just to remind everybody, Warren Buffett made the monumental amount of his capital after the age of 60. Go look at the computational math and the compound interest, and you’ll see staying in the game for a very long I got to stay healthy. Jonathan, you gotta stay in the game a long time. Okay, compounding comes at the end. Yeah,
Jonathan Wellum 13:26
that’s why we’re down in the game balance, right,
Anthony Scaramucci 13:29
right? Exactly. Gotta stay healthy. Okay, let’s take the next question, how do you find undervalued opportunities when growth stocks dominate the market? Another great question. This is Thomas from New York. Yeah, it
Jonathan Wellum 13:43
is a great question. I think there’s two. There’s meant, there’s a number of ways, but two primary ways, number one would be searches, so that we would use databases and just go through searches and run, you know, price to cash flow numbers, price to earnings, price to sales, a number of different metrics. And it’s amazing what you will cull out of your search. The second way that we do it is we follow we have a database of other value managers. And so we do watch what some of our competitors are doing. I say competitors, I mean, it could be anywhere in the world. We’re not really competing with them in a direct sense. And we watch what other people are doing that we respect. And I think this, those are the two primary ways that we would ferret out companies that are trading at reasonable valuation, so you try to identify people who share your values and are also looking for companies that are appropriately valued. Let’s
Anthony Scaramucci 14:32
go to the next question. How do you view emerging investing in emerging versus developed markets in today’s environment? This is Richard from
Jonathan Wellum 14:44
the UK, yeah. I mean, that’s that is an excellent question, also from our perch. And this isn’t necessarily the right way. This is just the way we do it, because we are based in Toronto, basically just outside of Toronto, and our field of sort of travel is north of. America, with a little bit in Western Europe, we don’t spend a lot of time looking at the emerging markets, because we’re not there. We can’t look at the whites of the eyes of the people running the companies. And so we are. We’ve restricted ourselves, for better or for worse, to stay to the markets where, you know, we understand the accounting, we understand, you know, we can talk in English and communicate with the companies, and so that’s that’s what we do now. That does not mean there are tremendous opportunities in the emerging markets. I do think that that has to be within your circle of competence, and you need to be close to those businesses, understand the cultures, understand those countries, the laws, or you can get your your head handed to you. My view is the best investment is the one that you can find closest to you, if you can understand it well and in detail. So that’s just, that’s the way we operate. I’ve learned that it looks greener in someone else’s backyard, but unless you really know that backyard, well, be very, very careful.
Anthony Scaramucci 15:54
Well, it looks very green in this backyard. And you know why? Jonathan, it’s not my backyard. Okay, this is obviously a rental down there. Okay, let’s go to the next question. What long term strategies help investors stay disciplined through market volatility? This is Steven from California,
Jonathan Wellum 16:14
yeah. Again, a couple of things, your your your mindset. You have to have a certain mental disposition if you’re going to be a good long term value investor. Buffet and Munger, Charlie Munger, his sidekick, often talked about this, that one of the one of the strongest attributes you can have as an investor is your mental temperament, your ear your ability to look beyond just the short term noise. The second issue, I would say, is that you have to know your companies Well, if you know your companies well, and you understand how they’re doing, and you know a downturn in the marketplace really is an impact in their business, other than the stock price, you have to separate the stock price from the underlying business. And if you can do that well, then you can really make a lot of money, because the stock market will discount great companies from time to time, simply because, you know, the markets are manic depressive and and so if it gets really depressive, you can buy a great business at a great price. So those are the two things I think, first of all, you really have to develop a strong mental temperament. And then second, know what you’re buying and why you’re buying it. If you have second doubts, get on the phone, get into the annual reports, bolster your knowledge and make sure that you feel comfortable with the investment.
Anthony Scaramucci 17:26
Before I go to the next question, I want you to make the case that Buffett makes for indexing. You know you’re beating the market. Hopefully clients can find you. Tell us what your website is so clients can find you. But then talk about a little bit about why Buffett is telling people to index,
Jonathan Wellum 17:45
yeah, well, our website with we work with wealthion, so you can get access to that. It’s one of the money managers, so it’s just rock link, R, O, C, K, L, I, N, C, so link with A, C, link.com, so rock link.com, but I think the reason why Buffett tells people the index is because people over diversify. And so I think you know the old Peter Lynch term to de versify. So if you’re going to invest in 100 securities, 300 securities, 500 securities, and pay a active management fee for that, then I don’t think there’s any way you can outperform the index. And so unless you are, in my view, again, we’re biased, because I’m a value manager, so I’ll say it right up front. I think unless you’re running really focused portfolios and doing something that’s quite unique and quite different than the market, and you can do that well, then paying a fee for somebody just to be quasi or just off the market or very close to the market, never works. So I think that’s why most money managers spread their money around too thin and they have too many positions. And therefore, if you’re gonna charge a percent or 2% fee on that and pay trailers to a financial advisor and so forth, then there’s no way you’re gonna beat the market. So I think Buffett says, yeah, just buy the index. You’ll do better because of that, the frictional costs are a lot lower. Okay,
Anthony Scaramucci 19:03
let’s go to the next question. Is great? Great answer. Let’s go to the next question, Should alternative assets like commodities or cryptocurrencies play a significant role in retail investors diversified portfolio? This is Daniel from Ohio, yes.
Jonathan Wellum 19:18
I mean we Yeah. I mean, even though we run focus portfolios, and that’s generally 2025 stocks, we try to diversify across a number of different industry sectors. So in other words, we’re not buying 20 stocks all in financials or in mining or something like that. We do try to make sure we’re across six or seven sectors, because I’ve just learned over my life investing, that it’s nice to have exposure, and you never know exactly what one sector is going to do well, especially if you can find great companies. So yeah, I know commodities, I think do play a significant role in someone’s portfolio, and a lot of people do, like the cryptocurrencies, and you just want to really know what you’re doing there. And I have not, I know, Anthony, you’re very big. Supporter of some of the cryptocurrencies. We have a couple of clients that have some cryptocurrencies in their portfolios. I still like the gold, silver, precious metals, probably my age, and the harder assets, but I really love the idea of cryptocurrencies. And so I think if someone understands that area well and they build that into their portfolio, there’s nothing wrong with that. Just be careful. Don’t be greedy. Build asset allocation. You know, be careful how. You know people get carried away right next thing, or their mortgage in your house and they’re buying Bitcoin. Please don’t do that, having a proper allocation. Know why you’re buying it and and take some profits too, from time to time, if you do well,
Anthony Scaramucci 20:37
I would add one thing to that and no leverage. Please don’t put any leverage on these assets. You know, it’d be a nightmare. You know, it’s like what Buffett says about leverage. It’s a spear coming out of your steering wheel, and you’re driving in a sports car on an icy road at pitch black. You know, you when you press the brake, it’s that’s that moment when you don’t want the leverage on you know, it’s very, really, really rough. Alright, let’s take another question. What was the best professional decision you made that shaped your investing success? Another great question. This is Mark from Texas,
Jonathan Wellum 21:14
yeah, the best professional investing decision, I think, would be to emulate other successful investors. So when I got into the business again, back in 1990 I got in with a gentleman, Mike Willie chin, who’s very successful investor. And he said, Jonathan, let’s first of all, you have to have investment philosophy like, know what your philosophy is. How are you going to invest so you don’t get pulled in every direction. You must be consistent in your approach and discipline, and then identify some of the best investors who have done that. And so, you know, we looked at, you know, Peter Lynch and Mary Olga Valley. And this is back in 1990 the Sequoia fund, Bill Rowan and and so. And then, of course, Warren Buffett. And so we really studied those individuals. And I think if you study people who have been very successful at something, you learn so much. Don’t reinvent the wheel. Stand on the shoulders of other people. And I think that’s the best advice. Remember, as investors, we’re not running the company. We’re just trying to find, you know, great jockeys and great, great horses that we can we can be, we, that we can run with and be so that’s, I think, one of the best advice I had, again, really emulate, have good mentors and follow them. Find the recipe and stick with it and don’t deviate from it. Yeah,
Anthony Scaramucci 22:31
I think, I think it’s such great advice. And it just also duration, right? Jonathan, duration, stay in good companies. You know, if you own a good company and they’re going through a rough spot, sort of, hang in there. Don’t, don’t be a quick trigger on the cell. Look at what Microsoft did after languishing for 10 years. But man, if you just held it over a 20 year period of time, you did incredibly well. Let’s go to the next question.
Jonathan Wellum 22:58
Yeah, what I say there? Anthony, also just, just following up on that when you buy and hold if it’s a good company, and you know the company well, your your after tax returns skyrocket the way you make money. All you know, if you look at the Fortune 500 you know people know the wealthiest 500 people in the world, they’re all business owners. And the reason they’ve been able to do is they’ve been able to compound tax deferred and so be very careful. If you can buy a company and stay with it for a long term and defer your taxes, and then compound that deferral and then pay the taxes at the end, you are so much further ahead, it’s unbelievable. So again, it’s the mathematics work if you can find great companies and stay with
Anthony Scaramucci 23:35
them and and things like Microsoft that pay a dividend, or companies like that as they grow, if you’re not selling, you’re not paying your taxes, you’re getting that dividend on the untaxed portion of your gains, and so is this another way to feather your nest? Okay, let’s go to the next question. Which financial book had a major impact on your investing philosophy and should be read by aspiring investors. This is Kevin from Canada. I’m going to go with making of the American capitalists. But this question is really for you, but it’s by Roger Lowenstein. It’s about Warren Buffett. It’s a brilliant book about how he thinks. What books do you like? John,
Jonathan Wellum 24:17
yeah, I agree. If I agree, that’s an excellent book, the the the other book, a simple one to read, is one up on Wall Street. I that you go back, that’s Peter Lynch’s book. It’s a very simple book. It’s easy to read by anybody. The other thing I would suggest is, if you have a little more time, read the compilation, the compendium of annual annual reports by buffet. So you don’t, you aren’t looking at his financials. You just looking at his reports. His reports, his his, you know, his letter to shareholders. Read that the thing that astounded me when I read all of his reports, if you read them over, you know, short period of time, year after year, you’ll find that like it’s shocking, his consistency is honesty when he. Makes mistakes. And when you can, when you can read as someone’s life, you know, 30 years plus of his of his investor career, and you can read it in a month or so, and you can put them all back to back, it’s astounding when you see how focused that man was and how disciplined he was, and how honest, as I say, if he made a mistake, that’s fine. He admitted it. You know, errors of commission and errors of omission, as he likes to say, and you learn so much from that. The other one, if you’re really a glutton for punishment, you get Ben Graham’s value investor, but the Intelligent Investor, but that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s a heck of a volume,
Anthony Scaramucci 25:34
you know, and they just came out with a new edition of that and a new forward. And I don’t know, maybe I’ve lost my attention span. That’s a little bit too much of a book for me. I’m going to take, there are no more questions. I’m going to take the last question, if you don’t mind, Jonathan and I want you to tell us a little bit about your registered investment advisor. How big it is, how many people are working for you? What types of clients do you like attracting to your firm? Yes,
Jonathan Wellum 26:02
yeah. So I was in the mutual fund business up until 2009 so we built a, the largest private mutual fund company in Canada that sold that the Manulife. And then I thought, you know, I’m just gonna set up a private office in 2010 called Rock link. And so we just been fooling around with that, basically building that until about four or five years ago. That’s why I started to add some other guys. And so I have other CFAs working with me on the investment side. So there’s eight of us. We bought half a billion dollars private, just family money, friends, relatives, and now we’re adding, you know, more families as we do a bit more advertising. And we’re really into the growing, growing that business. So it’s all based upon, again, as I’ve talked about, value investing, differentiated investing, investing based on the times that we’re in. Not just throwing ETFs or index funds at people, but actually, you know, running segregated accounts, high high quality, where we can customize for people and meet their needs based upon their particular circumstances. We are registered across the country. So we’re in all 10 provinces which Trump wants to make the 51st state. We’ll see and and so, yeah, so we’re having a lot of fun, but really energetic, smart. I’m the oldest guy in the company by far, hard working young guys that are just they love the investment business, they love research, they love ferreting out ideas. I mean, you know what that’s like in your business to Anthony, and it’s a lot of it’s a lot of fun. So we’re having, you know, we love the challenge. We love the intellectual challenge, also of it, and especially when you get in a market like this, where you’ve got so many things going on in the geopolitical world, it keeps your attention focused and and finding out, finding out, finding good opportunities for people. So it’s a lot of fun. We’re having good
Anthony Scaramucci 27:44
time. Alright. Well, congratulations on your business. Of course, we’re going to put up on the wealthion network your website, and appreciate you working with our team here at wealthion to grow your business so your business helps our business grow, and vice versa. So I like that virtual and very positive flywheel. And if you notice, I didn’t ask you any questions about the 51st state, so I want to make sure feedback in the channel. There’s lots of diplomacy between the Americans and the Canadians on this podcast today. Thank you again. So much for joining us. Thank
Jonathan Wellum 28:17
you very much, Anthony. All the best to you, and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these things on wealthion, great channel,
Andrew Brill 28:24
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