Gold’s Unbelievable Surge: Why It’s Not Stopping at $2,000

James Connor 0:05
Hi and welcome to Wealthion I’m James Connor. Today my guest is John Hathaway and John is a Senior Portfolio Manager at Sprott Asset Management USA. And John has extensive experience investing in gold and gold equities during this inflationary environment. And so I thought it would be a great time for us to have a conversation with John. John, thank you very much for joining us today. How are things in California blue skies and sunshine?

John Hathaway 0:28
Blue skies, sunshine and unrealistically cold. So very unusual for this time of year?

James Connor 0:37
Yeah. And when you say unrealistically cold, how cold isn’t? Well,

John Hathaway 0:41
in Fahrenheit, it’s probably in the high 50s. So at night, it’s gets down to the 30s rarely see that? Frost delays on the golf course, all kinds of problems? Well,

James Connor 0:57
that’s a lot warmer than where I’m in Toronto, and it’s probably in the high 30s. To put that into perspective, which is unseasonably warm here. But I guess it’s just, what do they say it’s El Nino.

John Hathaway 1:09
It’s either El Nino or El the other one on one India? I’m not sure I have enough trouble just keeping the gold space straight. Okay,

James Connor 1:20
so let’s talk about that. John, you’ve been investing in gold and gold equities now for many years. And before we get your views on gold, I want to get a sense of how you are feeling about what’s happening throughout the world right now, either from a political point of view, or from an economic point of view. Is there anything that causes you angst right now? Or is there anything that keeps you up at night?

John Hathaway 1:39
Yeah, the fact that the gold stocks are in the toilet, that gives me more heartache or headache or heartburn than anything else. Obviously, the geopolitical picture is pretty scrambled, maybe more so than it used to be. Economics, I would say I am in the very minority thinking that we’re still going to have a hard landing. I know the rest of the world seems to think it’s all peaches and cream, and the Feds going to stick a soft landing. Let’s just wait and see. But I’m not sure that’s either here nor there for gold itself. You know, what a lot of people probably don’t know. And for those tuning in, gold has outperformed the s&p for the last 25 years. And if you include income, which of course you have to, it’s outperformed. I think something like 518%, over 25 years, to something like 480% for the s&p, I’ll have those numbers in my soon to be published urine letter, which is now being scrubbed by compliance.

James Connor 3:07
So let’s talk about the economy a little bit more when you and I last spoke almost a year ago, at that time, you thought we were going to enter into a recession. Here we are almost a year later. The economy is very strong, the jobless rate is low. And yet the stock markets are doing extremely well. And you still think we’re going to head into a recession? Maybe you can tell us why what indicators are you looking at that would tell you we’re going to do that? Well, there

John Hathaway 3:34
are a lot of things. I mean, basically tax receipts are down, they can’t fake that. The employment numbers are very heavily massaged. And I don’t want to take the time to go into the chapter and verse But full time jobs are down. So the only thing that’s boosting employment numbers is people who work more than one job. A lot of it has been created by government, education and social programs. So I’m not sure you would call most of that productive jobs, but they do generate income for the employees. If you look at the regional Fed surveys, they’re all in recession territories. And I could go on and on I just don’t want to bore the listener but there’s so much data that is at at conflict with the idea that the economy is smoothly sailing along and I’m just waiting for the shoes to drop you know, for example, this is just off the top of my head Samsung high tech company reported terrible earnings and have a very disappointing outlook. That’s just one company but you know, you get beneath the politically beside just numbers that drive the algos every morning on Bloomberg. It’s not it’s not a it’s it’s not clearly recessionary. But it’s not an economy that is selling along smoothly. And I just think we need a little more time for that, to to prove out. And some would say, well, there’s no shock, like there was with COVID, or anything like that. But as my friend Stephanie Pomeroy says, the shock is higher interest rates know so much capital was raised during zero interest rates, so much debt was put on with a zero interest rate assumption or low interest rate assumption. And now we have the Fed saying higher for longer, maybe they maybe they reduce interest rates a little bit. But you know, anything in the 5% area is a shock to people who have to refinance. So I just, I’m just waiting for those shoes to drop. And, you know, that’s my long suit isn’t necessarily forecasting the economy, but I do think it factors into one’s outlook for gold.

James Connor 6:17
So you touched on interest, interest rates, why don’t we expand on that a little bit more? The Fed is currently paused rates last month, but we have another Fed meeting coming up at the end of this month. What are your thoughts about interest rates? Are they going to pause? Well,

John Hathaway 6:33
first of all, I think it’s fair to say the Fed has pivoted just by saying no more interest rate increases, and I don’t follow the dot plots, you know that closely. But I think there is a trend lower in terms of what the various participants in that survey are looking for. You know, the 10 years down a little bit, the two years down somewhat. So I would say, you know, the Fed has pivoted and every time the Fed has pivoted, and you go back to 2000 2001, I guess, look at Oh, 708. Look at COVID. I mean, every time the Fed has pivoted, you’ve had big, big gains in gold stocks. And I, you know, could rattle off the numbers, but I, you know, 40%, after 2000, couple of 100% in each of the other instances. And here we have the Fed pivoting, mainly because Yellen gave a speech the day before the last FOMC See, meeting in December, saying that, with inflation coming down, if real rates are rising, and therefore monetary policy is tight, that’s a pretty, you know, some would call it subtle, I would call it more blatant hint that the Fed should cease and desist. So, you know, one way or another, it may not be that the Fed wanted to pause or the Fed wanted to bring rates down, but I think they’re being told to, and

James Connor 8:28
yet the Fed is supposed to be separate from the federal government.

John Hathaway 8:32
Right, you know, believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

James Connor 8:38
So let’s talk about inflation now. And the government once again, is telling us we have inflation has come down from 9%. And it’s now around three or 4%. We both know that’s not true. It’s probably double or low double digits, at

John Hathaway 8:54
least depends on which benchmark. Yeah,

James Connor 8:58
I was at Costco the other day and you’re not going to believe this job. But I spent 500 bucks. And I didn’t even buy any protein. It was just like stuff. And I go to Costco to save money.

John Hathaway 9:11
A few cases of wine just to drown your sorrows.

James Connor 9:16
I might have a bottle later this evening. But so let’s talk about inflation. What are your thoughts on inflation and how do we protect ourselves in this inflationary environment?

John Hathaway 9:27
Well, you know, inflation has come down. You know, if you’re looking at energy, energy is down. There is input costs. I’m thinking mainly of the companies that produce gold. A lot of their input costs have come down. But I think the person that goes to the supermarket or Costco like you did, the prices are higher than a year ago and they don’t look at the percentage changes from month to month. They Just know that last year at this time they spent $400. And this year they’re spending $500. So I think the fact of the matter is that everything is more expensive now. And I guess the question that remains to be answered is, where do we go from here. And I would just note that the wage settlements that are being agreed to, at least south of your border, in the US have been pretty, pretty darn high, six, seven ish percent. And, you know, labor is a big input. So, you know, maybe the variable, things like oil that are coming down, but in the meantime, labor, which is a huge component, and it gets factored in various ways, is not coming down. The labor market hasn’t softened as much as the Fed would like. Again, those numbers are very politically manipulated. But, you know, I’d say, generally speaking, the labor market is strong enough for unions to get these terrific wage settlements. So I don’t know, I just don’t think and especially if the Fed has been forced to pivot, which I think is the way to put it. It’s not that they chose to, but I think they’ve been forced to, because of election year, they may not get the job done, then this last mile from 3% to 2%, could be really, really tough. And if they are going to back off as I think they are, that sets up a policy mistake, whether it was caused by the Fed or caused by the administration remaining, you know, so but I do think inflation has come down, but it isn’t going away. And I think I expect it to be a problem. Looking at as to what to do about it? Well, again, go back to what I said earlier, if you own gold for the last 25 years, you beat the s&p, you probably kept your purchasing power intact. And it’s sort of a passive approach. But that is one of the answers. I mean, the prices of all tangible assets have gone up in nominal dollar terms over the last 25 years. And it’s been a steady trend obviously, races ahead, sometimes. And sometimes it the pace slows down. But you just think of everything you in the world that’s tangible and house prices. gallon of gas. I looked at some books I bought back in the 1970s. And big fat paperback was $10. And now it’s $35. So one winded answer, but inflation, you know, Phil, they’ll chip away at it somewhat. But at the end of the day, they will not be allowed vaping the Fed will not be allowed to finish the work. And so inflation will continue to be a feature of our economic landscape. Yeah,

James Connor 13:36
you raise a very interesting point about labor because labor or the cost of labor never goes down. It’s not like unions going to come to the table and say, Okay, we want higher wages, and then come back the next year and say, you know, what, you can drop our wages by 10 or 20%. And I read an interesting article not too long ago, and it said that there was I believe, 22 major strikes in the US during 2023 major strike being anything with over 1000 employees, and I’m sure a lot of those prices, are those wages that were negotiated, haven’t even trickled through the system yet. We’re probably going to see that in the ensuing months. So

John Hathaway 14:16
no, that’s the, you know, minimum wages are another another topic under this subject. And, yeah, they’re gonna start affecting cost inputs beginning now. So, you know, again, leave it to the Bureau of Labor Statistics to figure out a way to neuter them, at least in the short run, but I would, I would say that the Fed has not achieved victory over inflation and they will not be allowed to and you know, whatever the CPI is tomorrow, and everybody’s sort of waiting at the edge of their seat to see what it’s going to be. It’ll probably look over Okay. And maybe there’ll be a celebration in the market. But, you know, if you take a step back, particularly looking at labor, as we’ve been talking about, I don’t think it is going away. And it’s here to stay. So I think it’s the world we live in. We have to, we have to have to face up to it.

James Connor 15:20
Now, you mentioned one of the ways that we can protect ourselves against inflation is through gold. And I want to play devil’s advocate here, because gold did okay. In 2023, it was up maybe five or 6%. I can’t recall the exact number.

John Hathaway 15:40
It was more like seven or 8%.

James Connor 15:46
Okay, so let’s go with 8%. But the s&p was up 20%. The NASDAQ was up 40%. Bitcoin was 100. Up 160%. Many other assets are increasing at a much accelerated pace than gold is, why isn’t gold at 2500 blocks or $3,000? an ounce? Why is it only a 2000?

John Hathaway 16:07
Well, did you know when you said that the s&p has gone nowhere over two years. So yes, it’s up a lot this year. But it’s barely back to its old high of 2022. So if you take a two year stretch, and I don’t remember what gold did in 22, but I think it was up a little bit. It’s done better. So you have to sort of be careful about your timeframe. And that’s just the s&p, you mentioned a bunch of other things, Bitcoin, et cetera, you know, bitcoins kind of a special case, because it’s got a big speculative following it, I’m sure we’ll have usefulness as time goes by, they’ll probably be able to create ETFs that’ll bring money. And so that’s a different different deal. But it’s not at least at this stage of the game, economically significant in the way that, you know, widely traded commodities, like gold and oil are.

James Connor 17:13
So let’s continue this. I want to ask you about Bitcoin, but let’s stick with gold right now. And as you mentioned, it’s trading around $2,000 an ounce, and which is, you know, okay, it’s going up. But the gold equities, the gold producers are not going up. And they’re trading at big discounts to their net asset values. Why?

John Hathaway 17:34
Yeah, just to expand on that. I mean, it is definitely the question, I think, at the moment, the average gold price has increased over since 2011, which is the last peak, we hit I think, 1900 and something in August of 2011. So average annual gold price, not these, these crazy gyrations that you read about every day is up 11%. That’s, you know, not that exciting, but it’s the average annual gold price. gold stocks over that same period are down over 40%. So to me, that’s a huge disconnect. And it sets up the potential for a mean reversion trade. Now to the second part of your question, which is why I would say, well, there are more things for people to invest in. And obviously, people are in having a romantic affair with stocks, even though stocks haven’t gone anywhere for the last two years. But, you know, they’re brainwashed by watching CNBC, and Bloomberg. And so I think that the oxygen has been taken out of the room for for gold mining stocks, in large part by the I would say, the illusory strength in the stock market. And, you know, but it is definitely a headwind. There’s no question about it. So one of the questions would be well, what, what could change that and in my mind, let’s first of all talk about the nominal gold price, which today was I believe, 22,025 I think, something like that. But if you inflation adjust that, to the peaks of 2011 and Pete, way back, ancient history 1980 It’s nowhere. The order of magnitude is it would be if you inflation, adjust the gold price. It’s Probably 15 $1,600 In real terms, going back to say 2000. So for those who get nosebleed with gold at 2025 I just think you’d have to take a look and say, well, it’s really nowhere. And there’s a lot more room for it to go up. I mean, the geopolitical realities for the US dollar over the last 25 years, I would say, and I think most people would agree, are way less favorable than they were. And, and so that would give you fundamental justification to say, Well, gold should be higher, maybe 2500 to 3000. And time will tell. But I do think it’s important to make the point that gold, slightly north of 2000, is not nosebleed territory, and there’s plenty of reasons to suggest that it could go higher. Now, how does that relate to the gold stocks, the gold stocks, as you pointed out, trading at huge discounts. BMO just did a study. They do this every month, but their most recent study showed that the gold mining group, large, mid and small caps are trading at a collective discount of $700 to the gold price. And that what that means if gold were trading at $1,300. And those companies, the industry produced all the reserves that they have declared, or let’s call it the next 10 years, you would recover the entire market cap of the gold space, which by the way is about the size of MasterCard over those 10 years. That is the cheapest they have been on that metric. Again, I’m using 25 years as a timeframe. So what you have is extreme value, extreme undervaluation. And if and my pet theory here is that people get nervous with gold over 2000. And they think it doesn’t belong there. And therefore gold stocks are pricing in a big pullback in the gold price. Well, we know from history that gold has increased at a very, not each and every year, but roughly eight 9% compounded. Why should gold go back to 1300? That’s absolutely insane. So I think when the I think, somewhere this year, we’re gonna see the switch flip to the glasses half empty to the glasses half full. And investors will be willing to see that these companies are generating enormous cash flow, some paying off debt, some wondering what to do with the cash balances they have. And the value proposition is absolutely stunning at this point in time, and I just think it’s going to take a different psychology for people to say, Yeah, we belong here. 2000 And maybe we’ll go to 2500. And I think the gold stocks will give you a good 50% within within a year. What people have to make that connection. I

James Connor 23:41
just want to clarify one point you made according to be most research. Gold’s currently trading around $2,000 announced but they’re saying the producers are trading at a $700 discount. So they’re discounting or they’re, they’re pricing in $1,300 Gold, is that correct?

John Hathaway 23:59
That’s correct. The implied discount. It’s an analytical exercise that all the major brokerage firms do. And I just use BMO because they have this big universe and some of the others might have a little bit different number, but the main thing is that over, we’ve never seen a discount of that amount using that metric in in decades. You know, it made me think that when I started in this business back in the 70s, corporate raiders would look at high quality companies producing lots of cash flow trading at six times earnings with 6% dividend yields, and they take a stake and they’d rattle the cage of the board and they’d say, you know, you’ve got to return capital to shareholders. You’ve got surface values. And I’m just wondering if something like that doesn’t start to happen. In the gold space. I’m not saying you’re gonna see icon guys like that? The Raiders of the 70s. But I think you’re gonna see some m&a Maybe not what you see with the big companies like Beric and Newmont, you know these mergers of equals. But I’ll just give you one example. We recently saw caliber mining make a successful takeover bid for marathon gold, which was a Canadian developer who shares were in the toilet because management basically mismanaged the capital raising process that was, and you know, to be fair to everybody. It’s been a really tough market to build a mine. Very challenging from but anyway, so caliber bought. Marathon and I thought at a bargain price, and what they’re going to what they hope to achieve, and I think they will, is an upgrade of the Nicaraguan discount which calibers acids are all in Nicaragua, and Valentine, which is in Canada, and is a tremendous new, I will be a tremendous new mind. In fact, I think in the data room, if you read the circular on the deal, there were 20 companies taking a look. And caliber, I thought very cleverly just kind of stole the march on the rest of the rest of the crowd are probably too slow to response. But I so that’s an example of what I think you’ll start to see more of in the space. So again, the opportunities for value creation through m&a have never been greater, in my opinion.

James Connor 26:50
So let’s just unpack a few of the things that you said here and once again, go back to the valuation because that’s what it’s all about gold trading at $2,000. The stocks are pricing in gold as if it was at $1,300. Central banks have been very active buyers here in recent years. They’re trying to protect their record amounts. Yeah, they’re trying to protect their their reserves of US dollars, right against inflation. Well, they’re

John Hathaway 27:17
in fact, they’re diversifying from US dollars. I just read and Luke Romans newsletter, which is a terrific letter. For those of you who don’t know, it’s called forest for the trees, that 20% of oil is now priced away from the US dollar. That’s incredible. And what that means is that company countries, particularly the BRIC nations are trying to get away from recycling trade surpluses into US dollars. And that’s very meaningful from a geopolitical point of view. And it’s another you know, you brought up an interesting point I should have mentioned it earlier, is that this entire rally from what’s called sub 1900 to plus 2000, has taken place while there has been general liquidation of gold backed ETFs by Western investors. The GDX, the Vanek gold sector ETF has lost I think 70 17% or their AUM over the last five years. So this strength is driven one by central banks and to buy a realignment of Gil geopolitical forces, which say, we don’t want to be recycling US Treasuries as a neutral reserve asset when we have trade surpluses, we want to deal in BRIC currencies, and maybe we’ll settle the differences, trade surpluses or deficits with gold. And that’s what’s going on.

James Connor 29:03
Like, do you think that the gold price might be artificially elevated because of the central bank buying and that the stocks are actually pricing in the true price of gold? Which is what should be $1,300 an ounce?

John Hathaway 29:18
Absolutely not. I mean, you know, the price is the price is the price. And, you know, if it’s not Western buyers buying it, it’s central bank’s buying it. By the way, they don’t care what price they pay, they just want gold on their balance sheet to do what I just talked about, which is settling trade balances. So you know, they’re not price sensitive buyers. Remember that in I think 2004 before 2004 There was no such thing as gold backed ETFs. But when Western investors got excited, which they’re not now, they added from infancy 2500 tons. In gold backed ETFs. And that was why gold went from post 2008, from 600 to 1900 in 2011. So this is all happening while Western investors are asleep. And they’re, they’re in love with AI in love with private equity, you name it. But gold is pretty important. And the fact that it could do what it’s done without any help at all, from Western investors, to me means that when Western investors decide they want to get their, their, you know, I’m not going to say the sky’s the limit. I don’t want to go crazy with this. But again, you know, much higher gold prices lie ahead of us based on any sort of return of interest from Western investors. And we just haven’t seen it yet.

James Connor 31:05
And if there was one element of your thesis that could be wrong, what would it be? Or if there was something that might, you know, throw a monkey wrench into your analysis? What would it be?

John Hathaway 31:17
It’s like the Goldilocks scenario, it’s it would be that the Fed sticks to soft landing, inflation goes along for 2% that we have robust economic growth for five years into the future. And AI takes over the world. I mean, that’s, that’s the stuff that, you know, things like that. It would be just like the, it’s kind of the mainstream. Mainstream consensus right now that if that turns out to be right, well, that’s not helpful to go. And I don’t think it makes gold go down. But because I think a lot of what’s going on with gold has nothing to do with people who come on as guest speakers for Bloomberg or CNBC are talking about, they’re all talking about the Fed, they’re all talking about Powell and what a genius is, they’re all talking about inflation, getting back to 2%. And interest rates, settling down to a level will make refinancing these zero interest rate deals much easier than it’s going to, in my mind gonna be I mean, that’s, that’s what that’s what they talk about. They don’t really talk about, you know, maybe they there are some that do, but that’s not what the consensus is thinking there. So I think gold is doing its own thing, without any help whatsoever from using CNBC or Bloomberg is sort of a proxy for consensus thinking. It’s doing its own thing. And my guess is, it’s not a crazy thought to say that maybe the valuations of AI and private equity will be challenged in the years ahead. And if they are then well, people will look for something else. And that would include gold.

James Connor 33:19
So you mentioned Bitcoin a couple of times. So I gotta bring this up, because we can’t have a discussion on gold without talking about Africa have to deal with it for sure. A coin and it had a very good 2023 It was a little roughed up in 22, but it was up over 160% and 23. Bitcoin is often referred to as digital gold. And do you think that big coal, Bitcoin, people invest in it for a lot of the same reasons that they invest in gold? But do you think bitcoins stolen some of the luster? Pardon the pun from gold?

John Hathaway 33:51
Yeah, no, I think they’re, I think that’s fair. I mean, people that are, you know, it’s generational in some ways. I mean, if you’re under 40, and you have physical gold, you’re like you’re off the reservation. And if you’re over 40 are well over 40 as I am, and you have Bitcoin, people wonder what you’re doing. So I don’t think Bitcoin should be dismissed, I think it has will have its usefulness. There are plenty of things you could quibble about, but probably it’s here to stay. But I think the tent for those who just trust paper currency is very, very large, and more and more people want to get into it. as days go by so you know, as far as I’m concerned, Bitcoin is welcome in the tent. And now the main thesis is currency, paper currency is losing value. How do we protect ourselves? How do we make sure that we’re not Going into Costco next year and spending $600 For the same bottles of wine that you just bought. So, yeah, the 10 is, is, is there? Gold has always been the answer. Bitcoin, maybe as another answer, but they’re not that many ways for people to sort of protect capital in liquid form. Yeah, you can buy a bigger house or you can buy a house and fix it up. They’re all those things you can do but they’re not liquid, you can buy farmland all this stuff takes specialized skill but it doesn’t take particular skill to own physical mental or probably Bitcoin. And it’s it’s those are both liquid alternatives to defend your net worth against currency debasement End of story.

James Connor 35:58
Yeah, you mentioned Costco again, and I forgot to bring this up earlier, but they started selling gold online. I’m sure you saw that in in the last quarter. Okay, keep it on the show. They sold over $100 million worth of gold ongoing. And I think that’s very interesting. What are your thoughts on that? And, and why they started doing that?

John Hathaway 36:18
I guess it’s the same people that go to Costco and see their purchasing power eroded. And they’re making, they’re putting two plus two together and saying, Well, this makes sense. When in the greater scheme of things, I don’t think it really is a big factor in the supply and demand equation, at least now. But again, it tells you how people are feeling about loss of purchasing power, and that they want to do something about it. Probably the same. I don’t know, coin sales off the top of my head, but it’s probably similar in the same way. And these are people that don’t watch Bloomberg, his people don’t watch Bloomberg. You know, they’re they’re basically say, Hey, I’m getting shafted. Here. I’m getting paying way more for a pork chop. What can I do about it? And that’s, that’s the very logical conclusion.

James Connor 37:08
John, you’ve been managing money for many years now. And you’ve seen many cycles. And I want to get your thoughts on the current cycle and how it compares to the past ones. And do you think this time period that we’re living through right now is it more like the 1920s, the 1970s, or the early 2000s?

John Hathaway 37:25
You know, there analogues to everything. But I think this is this is unique, because all the previous cycles, you mentioned, the dollar was not challenged. As a reserve asset, it was taken for granted. I think, based on what I said earlier, just to repeat, the thought is that the dollar is under siege as a reserve asset. And the BRICS, you know, you know, a huge percentage of global GDP, are moving away from the dollar, they’re trying to figure out ways to do it. It’s not going to happen overnight. But they’re that’s what they’re doing. I don’t think that was ever a factor in the 20s, or the 70s, or the early 2000s. So this is different.

James Connor 38:19
Yeah, you you raise an interesting point about the bricks, but that sort of change or move away from the US dollar could take decades.

John Hathaway 38:28
Well, but if 20% of the trade in oil, you know, just from a couple of years ago, is, is now taking place away from the dollar. So it can happen faster than you think. And again, look at the purchases of gold by central banks. They’re not doing it because they necessarily love gold. They’re doing it because they want to diversify way from US dollars. And they’re looking for different ways to settle trade differences away from, you know, the, for the last. You know, since the 1970s. The petro dollar has been the way they settled trade balances, they bought US Treasuries, earned whatever. And then, you know, when it came time to, you know, settle trade deficits. Treasuries were changing hands. But you know, look at what happened to bonds last year, you know, that’s not exactly the safe asset they were thought to be So, and I’m not saying there isn’t a trade and bonds if if we see a recession of the kind I’m expecting and you know, again, I could be totally wrong on that. But bonds are no longer even even in this country thought of as the safe asset that they used to be. And believe me foreigners, you know, don’t really they just use them as a as a neutral reserve asset. Several trade balances, have discovered gold is probably a better way to do it. And there they are not price sensitive buyers of gold the way you know the technicians are that you listen to on in financial media.

James Connor 40:14
John, as we wrap up, you are a prolific writer. If an investor we’d like to follow you and learn more about your thoughts on the economy and gold, where can they go?

John Hathaway 40:24
Go to the Sprott website? I think it’s under insights on the main page. And I am just about to publish a urine letter. It’s going through compliance right now. But hopefully that’ll be posted in a couple of days.

James Connor 40:41
That’s great. I want to thank you very much for spending time with us today, John, and I look forward to our next discussion.

John Hathaway 40:48
Thanks, Jimmy, All the best.

James Connor 40:50
I hope the weather warms up in California too.

John Hathaway 40:53
So do I. okay. So long.

James Connor 40:59
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