Join us for an illuminating episode of Speak Up with Anthony Scaramucci featuring Dan Tapiero, Founder/CEO/CIO/Managing Partner of 10T Holdings and 1RT Fund. This week, we continue to explore the dynamic world of cryptocurrencies, building on our successful Crypto Deep Dive. Anthony Scaramucci, CEO of SkyBridge Capital and Wealthion host, delves into a comprehensive discussion with Dan Tapiero. As a leader of companies investing in the Digital Asset Ecosystem (DAE), Dan brings a wealth of expertise and insights into Bitcoin ETFs, Ethereum, the Bitcoin halving, and more. Follow Dan on X.
Speaker 1 0:01
Well, good morning to speak up with Anthony Scaramucci. It’s great to be back with you guys on Wealthion what a great show last week with Anthony Pompliano. Oh, we had scheduled Dan Tapiero here with us. Dan is one of the more brilliant macro traders and OG in Bitcoin and understands the digital marketplace probably better than anybody except for Anthony Pompliano, I would say that they’re in the top two.
Anthony Scaramucci 1:51
You have two things going on, you have a lot of losses embedded in the grayscale Bitcoin trust. There, of course, we’re charging 2% on the grayscale, Bitcoin trust, and they lost taking, if you will, by the people that hold that trust. A lot of that happened yesterday. Some of that is happening today. And people are switching from that trust, which is charging one and a half percent down from two. They’re switching into that trust in some some of the lower cost ETFs. Second thing happening and we’re going to ask Mr. Tapiero about that shortly. Second thing happening is the galaxy who has been the
seller of FTX assets that were appointed by the FTX bankruptcy administrators to sell assets have dumped a lot of Bitcoin into the marketplace over the last two days. And I think that’s putting some selling pressure on a Bitcoin. But Joining me now is Dan Tapiero and Dan, I wish you had heard my introduction of you because I said that you were one of the original OGS one of the things I left out though, is I think you probably have the best PowerPoint presentation that I’ve ever seen on all things related to Bitcoin and one of the one of the things that was striking about that PowerPoint presentation is where we are there was a slide in your PowerPoint presentation that I remember brilliant brilliantly. And that was an adoption rate of Bitcoin. You said that we’re we’re near 9098 levels with 4% adoption. Tell us what you think is going on in the Bitcoin world right now. Tell us what you think of the ETF etc. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 3:43
Thanks, Anthony. You can hear me okay now
Anthony Scaramucci 3:46
Yeah, perfectly. Yes, sir.
Unknown Speaker 3:50
I might have missed the first part of that question. Always have a audio issue. So no.
Anthony Scaramucci 3:58
Adoption. Okay. We’re live show Dan at work says can you hear me now? I can’t hear you perfectly. I had to work. First. First of all, here in San Moritz. Hi. Yes, the opportunity spent some time with you last year here at the CFC San Moritz conference. And that’s where you can see these beautiful mountains behind me. That’s where I am today. But I was I was talking to our viewers and listeners about your impeccable PowerPoint presentation probably the best PowerPoint presentation I’ve seen on the macro discussion behind bitcoin etc. And one of the things that you had in there, which really struck me and I remember it vividly is the adoption curve for Bitcoin was tracking web one. And in that PowerPoint presentation, you had a 4% adoption going for Bitcoin, which puts us at about 1998. Yeah, in terms of where the internet was. And so I wanted you to just step back tell us a little bit of a story of But how you got into Bitcoin? Sure things related to crypto. And if you don’t mind, give us your opinion of the launch of the ETF. And some of the sloppiness that’s taken place in the launch of these 11 ETFs. approved by the SEC this week. Yeah,
Speaker 2 5:16
well, you got a few things there. 9098. Yeah. So, actually the data, I wouldn’t say that it was necessarily ours, I think it’s been pulled from a bunch of different sources. I’m not the only one to see in this way. But we do have a nice chart. And it just suggests it just says that 4% of the world today have crypto wallets crypto accounts. And so we went back and we looked at it was I think it was around 9097 98 4% of the world had access to the internet. And to date, the adoption rate of both of them have been tracking quite well. And so I just looked out over the next 10 years what happened because I’m an investor, portfolio manager, I care about the future, not about the past. And I said, Well, what happened from 98 to Oh, eight. And so from 98 to Oh, eight internet adoption increased by six times. So from 4% to 24%. And so 24% of the world in OA had access to the internet. So I’m just thinking, Okay, we go from four to 24% of the world will have crypto accounts or wallets. I think that’s a pretty good bet to make. From a macro perspective. I really have the wind at my back broadly, in terms of the adoption of digital assets, crypto web three blockchain every cover, we’re calling it today, digital assets. And so that’s how I sort of started from 20,000 feet looking at, you know, where is how powerful is this macro trend? And I thought, you know, at 1.2 years ago, it looked like, two, three years ago, when I first launch my fun. In January of 2001, it looked like
Anthony Scaramucci 7:13
it was closer to 9596. And that we had a 10x You know, a 10x coming and that was my originally thought but thought but 6x. And of course, we have a long way to go. It’s very early in the adoption and adoption cycle. So how did I get into Bitcoin? The second question, my first introduction to it was actually through my gold company, GBI, gold bullion International. I think we’re the owner, Wealthion or part owner or we are the Steven Feldman and Dan Tapiero. The founders of GBI own Wealthion. And I think you know, this, Dan, Steven, I go back 30 years. Yes, I was in. I was at associated Goldman Sachs with him. Let me rephrase that I was a clueless associate at Goldman Sachs with him and he was incredibly helpful to me, and getting my career started. And so a few weeks back, he invited me on to do a show with you guys. And so we, and you’re never gonna get rid of me, okay, just want to make sure you guys know that. Okay, I’m sort of like a bug stuck in the rug. But GBI gold bullion International, one of the largest
purveyors of gold as an asset class, to put into your portfolios. And obviously, they do an abrupt brilliant job, and they offer these services around the world, but you can buy gold at places like Merrill Lynch and UBS. And you can have it stored for you by GBI, and reflected in your accounts at these places. So it’s a brilliant innovation that GBI came up with. And I think it’s a good segue, Dan, because gold and Bitcoin have a lot of similar physical
Speaker 2 9:01
gold. Let me be clear, it’s physical gold sales and storage,
Anthony Scaramucci 9:05
right, exactly. Yeah. But I think I think gold and Bitcoin have similar some similar characteristics. Yes.
Speaker 2 9:12
Yeah, they absolutely do, you know, store of value. If you’ve been trading gold or investing in gold, for one and I had since the 90s. It has lots of different principles, in a way, like Bitcoin, meaning you have lots of different ways to win with a long gold position. It’s not just a hedge for your assets in the Fiat world, right. That often does act as an excellent hedge. But it also, you know, it does keep up with cost of living. Well, that’s been proven over time, inflation hedge, it also tends to go up when interest rates are going down and liquidity is increasing. It’s also a metal that’s driven by supply and demand. So you have that aspect as well, a lot of different, you know, it’s a geopolitical hedge. So, you know, unlike, let’s say, necessarily bonds or let’s just say stocks as an asset class, there are one or two fundamentals that drive the prices. With gold you have I don’t know, I think I counted once 10 or 15, independent fundamental variables that can drive the gold price. And I think it’s similar to much greater degree in Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a store of value. It’s a supply demand, also, something driven by supply and demand, because there is no, okay, there’s no supply response. I’m gonna get into that a little bit later, visa vie the TFR look at that and get some caution coming to
Anthony Scaramucci 10:47
tears. I convinced her to come to San Moritz, which was Tapiero you know why? Only thing that happened to me was my American Express notifications. Were going nonstop. Yesterday.
I’m serving in coffee. Unfortunately, it was not correlated with my rise in Bitcoin prices. So you had you had a situation of double liability, you know, Bitcoin was going down. And my American Express Bill was going up. Yeah,
Speaker 2 11:13
yeah. Well, I’m sure you had to really twist your arm to go into the summer. Right, exactly.
Anthony Scaramucci 11:18
So hence, I am being served coffee. So but but your your point?
Speaker 2 11:27
about Bitcoin? There’s many different things that drive its value. I mean, at its essence, Bitcoin is the only true decentralized, you know, permissionless network. And, you know, a few years ago, you know, I was looking at some of the prices of stocks, and you look at something like Twitter with with zero revenues, and yet 10s And hundreds of millions of subscribers. And so, you know, the old model is, well, you make a product and you sell it and you get cashflow. And your company’s worth a lot. And here we have all these different tech companies, no revenue, not even thinking about how to generate revenue, yet the network was expanding dramatically. And so my calfs law is the applicable law of value here. And the greater the network and there’s an equation the the greater the number of nodes on the network, the greater the value of the overall network and enterprises. And so, you know, I hadn’t really been plugged into that type of thinking. I was a macro hedge fund, Portfolio Manager for over 25 years and I started my career in the early days and early 90s and Tiger management and then work for Michael Steinhardt and Steve Cohen and SAIC for 10 years. And then Stan Druckenmiller Duquesne, and then pretty much stopped in 2012. And, you know, I, I just had never heard about some of the things that were driving and I wasn’t a technologist, I wasn’t a VC in the traditional sense. And so it just struck me as incredible that what was built the Bitcoin network that the math behind it was something that was a true invention that Satoshi published in an eight page white paper. And it was sort of unpublished on, I don’t say unbeknownst to the scientific or academic world, but certainly in the financial world, we had no ability, you know, market guys had no ability to even understand what was explained in that white paper. I mean, the Byzantine generals problem, proof of work algorithm, these are all very foreign terms. None of us knew anything about cryptography, or really even coding, etc. And so the value behind bitcoin is that the network is probably it’s an it’s a unreplicated, double, I would say network unreplicated bowl event that Satoshi came from wherever published this thing, and just put it out into the universe for free. I mean, ordinarily, you would think someone would come up with this kind of idea, and then try to monetize it through a business or a company or in some way. And that’s what makes it very strange, in a sense. So how does it make sense this this thing is, you know, the future of global finance, all value in the world will end up being on a blockchain somewhere in this digital asset ecosystem. And the originator is not making any money for old time guys like us. I just think that that’s a very high hurdle initially to understand. And then you realize, that’s sort of the beauty of it. That’s how, that’s how value can accrue to it, because it’s open, and it’s open to everybody and this As you know that when you look at all the things that Bitcoin can do or does, it’s, it’s a sailor likes to say it’s a savings technology for people in the emerging world. It’s this incredible network. It’s a cryptocurrency as well, I call that little be the cryptocurrency that incentivizes the node operators in the miners to validate the transactions on the platform. So it’s not controlled by a centralized entity. I think, eventually, you know, all important records will be held on blockchains. We’re not talking about AI and blockchains. And so all of these blockchains, again, of course, are all derived from the original Bitcoin code. So when you’re looking at value, and as an investor, and you think, Wow, this thing is incredible, it there are so many drivers of value. And now even revenue, you know, with the bump up in ordinals, and some of the activity on the Bitcoin network, I’m not making a judgment about that one way or the other. But all the people who claim that you can’t value anything without cash flow. Now you’ve got cash flow to even even more than you had before. And so I think the marble of Bitcoin is really what pulled me into this world. My introduction, get this was through GBI, in 2014, because GBI became the first place in the world where you can buy or sell gold to buy or sell Bitcoin or ripple. And that was through an integration with a company called bid reserve, which today is the uphold wallet, and you can still do it, you can still go on the uphold wallet and buy gold and sell Bitcoin or do the opposite, unfortunately, never turned into a big business for us, you would think my goodness, we were there in 2014, it should be billions. We never really marketed it, it just it just never did never really took off. It’s done. It’s contributed but just not in the way that one might expect. But then Anthony, I, you know, understood that we were making money from these transactions, this is 2014 After a year of integrating with them, but I didn’t really understand all those things that I just mentioned to you about Bitcoin. And it actually took me about five years. Because I kept trying to read the white paper. And I do a lot of homework we do tremendous amount of research is you notice from that deck that that I presented that was in Zurich, I think in Switzerland, and and I just could not understand it. And I kept giving up. And I gave up and I gave up. And then finally, at the because again, I didn’t understand these terms. And in 2018, finally the price have collapsed. And as a traditional markets guy, I’ve seen that before massive bubbles, the acid collapses 90%. And two things happen at that point, you know, the asset really is going to zero, or it’s the beginning, you know, it’s the beginning of the next bull phase, or it’s the end of the bear phase, and you have to start buying. So that’s what I did, I started buying in early 2019 and built a position in my own entity, which is detached capital in Bitcoin, and then also a little bit in Aetherium. And then I sort of sat back and said, alright, what now I’ve got this great position. I spent six months in my office in Greenwich, just reading, listening to podcasts, to get to a place where I, you know, really sort of started to understand the value proposition. And I look, I think it’s very difficult. I don’t know how often you address this or speak about this, but it’s very difficult for people from the old world. I mean, you’re one of the few guys, you know, around my age, it’s hard to convince people. I mean, it takes so much work and explaining.
Anthony Scaramucci 19:02
You’ve done it, you’ve done an amazing job of explaining it and this show the feedback we get for more viewers and listeners as they want to really deep dive which is why I was so glad you accepted our invitation. It’s also an interactive show, Dan, I had a chat question coming in from the ad good humor man. Of course I remember that good humor man. Selling me short Strawberry Shortcake pops when I was a kid, but good you are man is saying that is he is saying that. It’s not decentralized. Yeah. And and I want you to explain to people why there are some people that think that Bitcoin is not decentralized, but why you and I think or actually can empirically prove that it is decentralized, if you don’t mind. Yeah,
Speaker 2 19:54
no, I think that so There are core code. You know, there is a Bitcoin Foundation and there are people who are working basically on the maintenance of the code. So understand that that Bitcoin is code. Now, you could argue that if someone is directing somebody else to clean up and do maintenance of the code, that, that there is some sort of force out there operating that way, I see those guys, and they work hard, and they work for no money. And I know, I know that, you know, the Vanek ETF that’s coming out is gonna is going to give 5% of all of their profits. Did you see that yesterday to the the guys working on the Bitcoin code? I
Anthony Scaramucci 20:50
thought I thought that was great, by the way. Yeah, we need people. So I think the good humor is point is whether 610 20 however, a small number of people, so doesn’t that mean that Bitcoin is Centralized Revenue? The answer to that is no explain to him why? Well,
Speaker 2 21:08
it’s it’s so I see them, I see them more in a way as I don’t want to call the janitors cleaning things up, or as you know, gardeners trimming around the garden, you know, coming to do the maintenance, the cleanup to make sure the code is working. Right. But there’s, there’s no changing of the code, there’s no, you know, you know, there’s no hard fork that isn’t, you know, that isn’t signed off by the entire community. soft, soft forks are different, you know, there again, I think it’s, it’s more maintenance, there’s no actual change. And so you’d have to get everybody to sign off or clear majority on on a change. And so that’s really what we’re talking about, sort of in the one hand, the other hand, he may be saying, well, it’s not decentralized, because the top 20 guys own XYZ amount. And I really don’t find that very legitimate. I mean, there are millions of holders of Bitcoin, all across, you know, the socio economic strata, in all countries of the world, that’s the most actually, I think it’s the most decentralized from a holding perspective of any asset in the history of the world ever. You know, you can’t find an asset that so many different types of people own.
Anthony Scaramucci 22:33
So I think, you know, you can say a lot of things about Bitcoin, but to say that it’s not the centralized is probably one of the ones that you can, you can’t say, you may not think of it as a store of value, or you don’t believe in digital value. Look, also there are 10s of 1000s of node operators out there. People, you know, verifying the code. I don’t know why or how that person should read Yan Pritzker spoke inventing Bitcoin, read those 100 pages, and then come back, come back to us and tell me that it’s not decentralized. Yeah, so Yan Pritzker. His book was fantastic. I also wrote a small book called the sweet life with Bitcoin because I was taking so much guff Dan, from my clients when I brought them into Bitcoin. I said, Okay, I gotta write down and explain it to them. And so I sent this out. I’ll tell you why, if you’re listening to the show right now, send us your email. And the first 100 people that sent me an email to Wealthion, maybe we can post where they can send the email producer geniuses, and I’ll send out 100 free books sweet life with Bitcoin. Not as good as Pritzker is book, but I’m going to tell you why I really write in ninth grade English, so it might be easier to understand. It might be easier to understand the principles book, it’s called the tweed life with Bitcoin.
Speaker 2 24:03
Let me just interject when I went on after I read the Pritzker book, I, I bought like 20 or 30 copies. And I mentioned that I had done so on Twitter. And he sent me another 100 books to give out and this was to prospective investors of my private equity fund that invests in the sort of later stage companies in the digital asset ecosystem. That’s one roundtable partners and then 20 Holdings. And so I’ve handed out all 120. You know, it’s a very easy book to hand out. I’m just, I’m just saying, I know you’re hitting yours as well. My guess is they’ll all be gone within a week or two. Yeah. Well,
Anthony Scaramucci 24:47
I appreciate that. So we’re 92843666249 to the mooch. We’ve got some email questions. Dan. Let’s pop up. An email question guy serve up one of the email questions we’ll ask Stan do you think will consolidate towards the 30k range until we till we have a pump to the all time high as we approach the halving? This is from Tyler Dusan via chat. So he’s asking, he’s asking, Are we selling? Are we selling the,
Unknown Speaker 25:26
Anthony Scaramucci 25:27
are we selling this news about the ETF down to 30k?
Speaker 2 25:31
Yeah, let me just first start by saying, you know, I probably turn it over 100 markets in my career, managing p&l, intraday day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year for pretty, you know, a track record of 16 years. And Bitcoin Ethereum, which are two core assets of the space, the other cryptocurrencies, this is the most difficult space to trade by a factor of 10x. And, you know, the volatility metric of measurement of a Bitcoin Aetherium, somewhere between 50 and 100%. So, you know, I hate to give short term trading views, but I will tell you this, I think, look, this market can head fake you and caused tremendous angst, I think that the right way to approach this is to think Bitcoin will make new highs this year period, the halving will be positive, the Bitcoin ETF is very positive. And I can get into that in a second for why I have some sort of non traditional reasons for thinking why. So I think if you’re worried about a 20 30% drop, which probably happens, you know, 10 times a year, in the course of a year, I just think you’re looking at it the wrong way, if it drops down to 30,000, which is certainly possible. I think that’ll be the last time to buy before making new highs. So I, you know, I again, I just think it’s very, I think it’s too fine. A point to put on it here. There too many good things happening. But could could it happen? It could happen? I don’t see below 30,000. Really. But again, I don’t, you know, the way to build wealth in this space is to have a position to hold on for 10 years. And that’s, that should be your mindset, you should be buying every month or every quarter, set them out of your portfolio, I think it should roughly be I used to say 1%, in 2019, then I went to 3%. That, I think really you’ve got to own 10% of your portfolios got to be in this space, whether it’s Bitcoin, an E, you know, a venture fund that invests in projects, a fund like mine that invests in companies that are, you know, making $50 million in revenue or more, you know, it’s up to you to decide how you want to allocate that. But I don’t know what you think about that 10% number, which I think that’s a pretty nice number. I mean, I’m, well,
Anthony Scaramucci 28:23
I love that 10% number, and I think what happened to me, I started at 5%, it actually got to 20%. Yeah, but then unfortunately, it went back down to like 4%. And now it’s closer again, to 70 and 80%. So, so the point being is, and I think he’s making a good point, we have lots of volatility, and it would be impossible for you and I to protect that short term move. But I think what you’re saying, from a macro perspective, as more wallets are added, as the Lightning Network continues to adapt lots more infrastructure. Lo and behold, could Bitcoin start to look like the market capitalization, so just start to become the market capitalization of gold? And, and I believe it could, and I think you do as well. And let’s just say for the skeptics, we’re only half right. And the market capitalization of gold is, I don’t know, 13 or 14 trillion right now. Could Bitcoin go to 7 trillion? And if that’s the case, well, guess what, it’s an eight to 10% Excuse me eight to 10 times return from here on I don’t want my clients to miss that data. And I know you don’t want your clients to miss that. And that’s why that’s why we’re here talking about it’s
Speaker 2 29:41
huge risk. You’re not getting to that three or $400,000 Bitcoin price without having you know, again, in three years from now, we probably have another drawdown of 70% and then it goes up 5678 times and then we have another drawdown and so the true because not to have our bullish view because I think that’s very clear. The trick is to hold on through the volatility. That’s the that’s the the fancy part. That’s the, you know, the fancy dancing and so if you could just remove yourself from the minutiae you know, and I think Rolla, Powell is now out there saying, Don’t f it up every day on the on the Twitter, which is a reference to just approach the investment in the right way, and everything’s gonna be fine. Don’t try to be a genius here.
Anthony Scaramucci 30:37
Okay, let’s take another one. I think we got a few more in the chat. We may have a few Collins please address the politicization of Bitcoin? Boy, this is a really good one. And this is a great friend of the show Andrew Pirillo. Is this solely because it’s the anti fiat currency store of value that undermines unlimited creation of paper currency. Why do you think Bitcoin has become political? Dan, you know, I mean, I met with and I think you’ll enjoy this. I met with one of the regulators from the UAE yesterday at this conference here in Switzerland. And they were very clear with me that they have a non political, regulatory body. They’re not looking at it from a regulatory you know, Elizabeth Warren hates Bitcoin. Gary Gensler Elizabeth Warren is Batman and Gary gets was Robin, they’re driving around in the anti Bitcoin mobiel like the Ghostbusters, and even though they’re losing court cases after court cases, they’re trying to stop Bitcoin. That’s politicization. Why do you think it is that way? I think Andrew is making a good point. I’m just wondering why why do you think it is that way?
Speaker 2 31:44
I think there’s a feeling amongst Democrat or more left leaning, that they lose control somehow. And, you know, look, I grew up I don’t know about you mooch. But I’m a Reagan free markets guy. You know, I I believe it.
Anthony Scaramucci 32:08
Do we miss him? My friend? Did we miss him?
Speaker 2 32:10
I know, I, I can’t think about it. I can’t think about it. But I do believe in free markets. And you know, free markets are essentially it’s a they’re voting mechanisms in and of themselves, right? It’s the residue of millions and millions and hundreds of millions of people voting on value. I don’t know how we could ever do better than hundreds of millions of people, no one individual. And I think it scares them to lose a little control. Instead of thinking, let’s trust the market. Right, let’s let it determine where value should be placed. And we do that in the stock market. We do it in the bond market, we do it in the emerging markets, people decide they’re interested in Asia, they make investments in Asia, they decide they’re not interested, they don’t make investments in Asia, you know, if they, if they were so sure about their opinions, that they were right, they should just let people determine. Right? What happened here in the US is really a travesty. It’s taken 10 years to approve an ETF think about all the wasted time and energy. When you could have just said, Sure, you know, we’ll do we’ll do our work, we’ll do our due diligence. And, you know, we’ll let people decide. And so I think that that’s essentially, the division is this idea. There’s a perception that control is lost, also the anti fiat currency store of value. I’m not sure that that’s necessarily connected, because everybody knows that Bitcoin is limited in supply. There are only 21 million Bitcoin there are only 21 million and Fiat, of course, increases at a certain rate every year. I think that’s a fact. Now, whether people like that or not, is a different issue. Every asset in the world dollar I mean, dollars, s&p bonds is down 99% against Bitcoin. In the last 12 years or so. There’s been a huge wealth transfer to the owners of Bitcoin with the early owners. The guys who bought Bitcoin mining at $1 bought it at $100. Their wealth has increased dramatically, versus people who own NASDAQ bonds yielding now 5% In the short end, or whatever it is, and so I think the market has already Hold you that if you don’t own something in this space, and I’m not saying the next 10 years is gonna have the same 50,000% return, but it’s still early enough in this process in this adoption process, that I think you’re suggesting that Bitcoin could 10x Here, I think it’s very unlikely that bond, or stocks or any assets generally will 10x. You know, maybe you have certain individual stocks, of course that do. But I, I just don’t, and I think the space itself, which holds about $2.3 trillion in value, could easily 10x Over the next sort of five to 10 years easily. So. So that’s why I think that the debasement of Fiat, which is a fact isn’t really connected to the politicization. You follow, Anthony, but I’m,
Anthony Scaramucci 36:04
I do. I do. I think, I think you’re saying it very well. And I think it’s, I think it’s, I think it’s one of the reasons why we’re both in Bitcoin. Before we go to another question. I was dying to ask you this one myself. So I gotta, I gotta ask this myself. We have very smart people that hate Bitcoin, and let’s just be honest, okay? I work with Gensler at Goldman. I think he’s just more person hates Bitcoin, Jamie Dimon, he has told the Congress if he were the American government, he would shut it down. Two days ago, he said Bitcoin was worthless. He hates Bitcoin. And then you got people like Paul Tudor Jones, who I know you’re familiar with and friends with. I mean, he’s a brilliant man. He’s long Bitcoin. You’ve got somebody like Stan Druckenmiller. You know, somebody said to me, yesterday, at this event, if you study Bitcoin, it’s a one way move. You can’t not like Bitcoin, if you do a deep enough dive in Bitcoin meaning, I don’t know anybody that’s read all the rest to read about Bitcoin, or like you did. The hung out with the white paper, to really understand the technical aspects of Bitcoin and then said, Okay, this sucks. I’m going to pass on it. So, so tell me what’s going on? Why don’t we have super smart people not liking?
Speaker 2 37:26
Look, you’ve been involved in the politics in the US too. So you know, I think it’s pretty clear that if you step back and you say, Well, who do I, you know, who would I get my money to, to manage? Where do I think I’m going to get a greater return? Am I going to invest with Paul Tudor and Stan drakh? Or am I going to invest with Gensler and Jamie Dimon? I think if you’re an investor and you want to return a high return on your money, I think it’s pretty clear, but they don’t always the older guys, they don’t always articulate exactly why they’re buying. You know, I think Paul has come out and said very clearly, he thinks it’s the fastest horse he wrote a was a five page paper. So about it. And I think it was 2022. You can read that in the on the net somewhere. And Stan has gone back and forth on it. But it’s such a massive moneymaker. Whatever his reasons are, doesn’t really matter. You’ve been you’ve been paid to follow standards of views. The political establishment, I think it’s again, this issue about control, fear of losing control. And that’s why I mean, politics is about control. The other guys are about making money and seeing value. I will never give Jamie or Gensler, the time to manage ever I don’t care how much JP Morgan stock is up. He’s got a monopoly that the government is backed and he gets to buy assets for nothing and deposit money that he borrows at zero at 5%. Great Good for him. But let me just say, yeah, there’s someone in the middle. And I think that that and that person is Larry thing, Larry Fink two years ago was a Jamie Dimon character. He came out and it’s a fraud. It’s for money laundering. We won’t want we don’t want to get involved with it. And his about face in July, was the kickoff for this. This I call it were second inning of this bull phase. He kicked it off, and he came out. He said Bitcoin is a global asset. It’s an important asset. And we’re gonna get the ETF. And so I think that I don’t want to say Jamie Dimon will eventually get there. I don’t think it maps. Jamie Dimon. In fact, it’s actually pretty good because you know, one of the old sayings on Wall Street was that bull markets climb a wall worried. And so if if people want to worry and not invest, they have a good reason they just saved themselves. Oh, Jamie Dimon doesn’t think it’s real. And he’s us is number one banker. So you know what, I’m not going to invest in it. So he gives people a reason not to do it. If everyone is already long, then the price is probably a lot higher. And the investment is probably not as high quality. But as we said, we are very, very far away from Yeah,
Anthony Scaramucci 40:32
it’s very, very early. Let’s take another question. Maybe we have a voicemail question or someone calling in. Tyler from Missouri, he worry Tyler
Unknown Speaker 40:46
is that Morgan Stanley.
Unknown Speaker 40:47
I’m from Mississippi in the United States,
Anthony Scaramucci 40:49
Mississippi. I’m sorry, I thought I thought I said Missouri. As a New Yorker, go ahead and tile pacifically
Speaker 3 40:57
companies providing physical products that rebate the traditional consumer with web three digital assets to introduce them to multiple crypto communities.
Unknown Speaker 41:10
I couldn’t hear any of that. Anthony, if you could repeat
Anthony Scaramucci 41:12
it. Okay. Yeah. So say Say it again. Tyler. I’m sorry. For some reason. Volume is very low. You know, the volume was low on that. I’ll raise my mind. Let’s try it.
Speaker 3 41:21
There’s a tablet. I’m from Mississippi in the United States. I’m also building on the Elysium network. And I had a question for you about physical products. Are you looking at real world asset projects, specifically companies providing physical products that rebate the traditional consumer with web three digital assets to introduce them to multiple crypto communities?
Anthony Scaramucci 41:44
So I think I think the question, yeah, go ahead. I think of course. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. I
Speaker 2 41:49
mean, I think look, RW ways, and the tokenization of real world assets are W ways is a trend that just really kicked off this year. I wouldn’t even say it’s in the first inning. It’s the first batter the first inning there. And it’s simply the idea that assets from the real world commodities bonds can be put on a blockchain and therefore become fungible with the ball other assets on all blockchains. I think this is definitely happening. It’s, we have one of the companies we’ve invested in Figure Anthony might know figure, Mike Cagney, the CEO, they have made, you know, progress in this area. There are other smaller companies that this year have made progress tokenizing bonds. And to be honest, I think stable coins in a sense, which are just currencies backed their fiat currencies that are represented by a digital token. USDC, which is a circle stable coin, in a sense is a almost a real world asset, or let’s say an old portal acid that’s been tokenized. I think that trend has started it’ll continue. And I do think one day everything, we have value, everything, you know, your the art on your wall, your car, your house, I think will be tokenized. And on a blockchain. I don’t know people have been talking about this for several years. But it’s just started to pick up speed today.
Anthony Scaramucci 43:30
All right, great question. I appreciate it. Tyler, thanks for calling. Anybody else out there with a call in or? Let’s play one of our voices speaking up, Nolan. from Wisconsin Nolan, welcome to speak up.
Speaker 3 43:43
Hi, Anthony. How’s it going? My name is Nolan writer. I’m a young and ambitious investor much like yourself. My question is that, seeing that we could speculate all we want, but I wanted to know what you think the probability and would be the outcome of Bitcoin breaking away from historical patterns and running the all time highs before the post housing cycle? What would that scenario look like? And what would it mean for the market? Thank you.
Anthony Scaramucci 44:13
So Dan is the best person, we got the best person probably in the world to answer that question. So I’m gonna let Dan take it away.
Speaker 2 44:22
I don’t know if I’m the best person in the world. But I would say, you know, before the halving, I would say this probably 25 30% chance. And so and the way that I would think about it, is that we’re having a little consolidation right now, after the announcement of the ETF maybe we go sideways for a little bit people start to say, hey, you know, this, this ETF everything wasn’t as big a deal as we thought, and then it explodes up and I think this next move up the reason I say this twice If I have 30% chance, I mean before the halving that’s just in the next few months, is that if we actually start to break, call it 50,000. I don’t see how we we we don’t continue through the new highs almost immediately. So after some consolidation here, bring it a little doubt. I think a few too many people were a little too hyped up. Remember, the markets been rallying since the summer and Larry Fink’s comments on the expectation that there would be an ETF. So at least the last 5000 8000 points has been in Bitcoin has been in anticipation. So I would say, you know, I think that there’s a, you know, 70% chance that we make a new high by the end of the year, like that’s a that’s an easier call. You’re asking on a three four month call, I still think that there’s a very decent probability.
Anthony Scaramucci 46:00
But I also think it’s important just to add this, that the grayscale Bitcoin Trust, which was a great product, because it it had to be jerry rigged, as a result of the regulatory problems Dan mentioned earlier, they could have given us an ETF in 2013, it would have been fair for the investor because they didn’t grayscale created a trust. It was a high fee trust. Well, now we have low feed ETFs. And so you’re going to see some pressure and churning in Bitcoin. As people spin out of that we’ve also got the app DX debacle, where there’s tons of Bitcoin inventory that are now being dumped into these 11 ETFs. So we’ll have some consolidation. But that doesn’t mean that there isn’t huge demand for this now, something Mr. Tapiero knows very well is Wall Street. And I will tell you right now, I’m embarrassed to admit this day because it’s a sign of both of our ages. But the two Italians that you’re talking to on speak up, we have 70 years of combined experience on Wall Street, probably more than that. And we both know the selling mechanisms of Wall Street products are sold on Wall Street, they are not bought, there is a Legion 10s of 1000s of people will be recommending to their clients, a one to 5% Exposure to Bitcoin, on a fixed supply asset like that. It’s very hard to imagine the magnitude What say you, Mr. Tapiero about my? Yeah, yeah, it’s definitely going to get sold in the marketing. I think you’ve mentioned maybe on Twitter, wait for the marketing engines to start ginning up. I think many people would like to have their Bitcoin exposure. This is in America, I don’t know about the rest of the world, this is a different story. This is just America, like to have their assets in their equity account. They’d like to see everything on one screen. And also, you know, for larger portfolios, the brokerages and banks often offer a leverage. And so I think that this is another way people will, you know, maybe if they have Bitcoin outside, and they don’t feel comfortable leveraging it outside, I think within their stock portfolio, they’ll then be able to potentially even buy more Bitcoin because it will be part of an overall portfolio. The exciting thing, and I put a tweet out about this is that, you know, there’s never been an ETF ever, where the underlying core asset has a fixed supply. So what does this mean when gold prices there’s a GLD, when gold prices go up, gold prices, double miners go out and try to find more gold, and they do, and they sell that extra gold that they find into the market. So this is supply response. I keep, you know, thinking when I was in the ag markets more active, you know, 15, actually more 1520 years ago, the Ag ag markets, they used to say high price, sobs high price. And of course, what that meant was you were thinking that there was going to be a drought and you and corn prices went up. The next year farmers would find more land, they would switch land from other crops to corn and there would be a supply response.
Speaker 2 49:25
You know, us lesson the oil for instance, the if the US had not started with its fracking, the oil price will probably be at $250. This is very important. There is no supply response possible with Bitcoin. The price can go up to whatever number you can think and it will not create more supply. So this is very different from every other asset, where there’s an ETF and there are hundreds of trillions of dollars of wealth out there. I think total wealth is what is it 500 trillion. So, I really don’t know if
Anthony Scaramucci 50:10
he’s gonna hit that, Jeff. I think that’s Jeff Bezos as well, the 500.
Speaker 2 50:17
I don’t know what’s gonna happen like, I think it’s unchartered territory for financial assets I really do. To have an asset class where there is no bonds, currency, everything equity, there’s always more supply, your stock goes up 1000 times the CEO issues equity. There’s always a possibility for more supply. So it’s really uncharted territory here.
Anthony Scaramucci 50:47
Well, you’ve been incredibly gracious with your time, Mr. Tapiero.
Speaker 1 50:53
I want to remind people you can go to the website, Wealthion.com backslash LP backslash, ask Anthony and the first 100 people that do that will send you the sweet life with Bitcoin. So essentially, Ash, ask hash Anthony, right. Wealthion.com backslash LP, backslash, ask hash Anthony.
Anthony Scaramucci 51:17
And Dan. Hopefully I’ll see you in Switzerland again or back in New York. And I appreciate your contribution to all of us, because you got there ahead of me. And I learned a tremendous amount from you, which got me comfortable back in 2020. And I think you’ll enjoy this I think, I think Michael sailor bought his first Bitcoin in August. I had a conversation with him in September, which really got me comfortable. So we’re in it together. This is speak up with Anthony Scaramucci. We’ll see you next week. And Mr. Tapiero. Thank you so much for joining the show today. Thanks for having thanks for having me, Anthony. Good luck. All right. Have a great weekend, everybody.