Are your investments ready for a world where U.S. bonds are no longer safe? In this urgent Wealthion AMA, WindRock Wealth founder Chris Casey joins the channel’s producer, Mario Rodriguez, to answer your top questions and explain why the traditional “risk-free” U.S. Treasuries investing playbook is breaking down.
Chris warns of a looming U.S. debt crisis, a possible bond market collapse, and remaining risks in commercial real estate. He shares where he’s putting capital now, and why gold, miners, energy, and Bitcoin may be essential for protecting your portfolio.
You’ll learn:
- Why U.S. Treasuries have lost their “risk-free” status
- Chris’s 2025 Outlook for the Stock Market
- Where short-term bonds and cash play a role in today’s uncertain markets
- Why gold miners, and energy stocks are primed for a breakout
- How Bitcoin fits into your portfolio, but why it’s not a safe haven during market crashes
- Why counting on a Fed rescue may be dangerous in 2025
Volatility got you concerned? Get a free portfolio review with Wealthion’s endorsed financial advisors at https://www.wealthion.com/free
Hard Assets Alliance – The Best Way to Invest in Gold and Silver: https://www.hardassetsalliance.com/?aff=WTH
Chris Casey 0:00
US, Treasuries are no longer risk free instruments, and they haven’t been for some time.
Mario Rodriguez 0:10
Hello and welcome to wealthion. I am Mario, the channel’s executive producer, and today, with me to answer your questions, is Chris Casey, the founder and managing director of our partner, wind rock wealth management. Hi Chris, how are you doing? Hey, Mario, thanks for having me on. Thanks for joining us as always, Chris. So as you know, we’ve been getting a lot of questions from our community, people that comment on the YouTube interviews or on our social networks, and I have some questions that I’m going to throw out at you, and we’ll get your very informative, insightful answers. So let’s start with the first one, and this form can tree app, 2426 and he says, are you worried about commercial real estate? Commercial real estate, excuse me, should we still be concerned about that sector, or has the worst already passed? What do you think? Chris, yeah,
Chris Casey 1:07
my my gut would tell me there’s still a lot of pain to be felt, and that’s primarily because, and I’m not a commercial real estate expert by any means, so I don’t have a ton of statistics I could pull, you know, out of hat and have at the ready, but what I do know is that a very large amount of commercial real estate was refinanced at, obviously, record low rates, and a lot of it’s coming due, including this year, when that debt matures and they have to roll that over. The The issue is that the new higher interest rates on this debt may not make the property viable anymore, right? Because you’re adding a huge expense to the the PnL statement. So that is a real concern, especially because occupancy for, let’s say office is still not where it was in pre lockdown period. So commercial real estate, I would suspect there’s, there’s more pain to be felt. But having said that, I should caveat that and say real estate is obviously local. That doesn’t mean any particular property someone should not look at because their fear, their fear of commercial real estate in general. So I would encourage people just to think locally. There’s always opportunities in real estate, but in general, yes, I think there’s a lot of pain still, still to be felt in the commercial space,
Mario Rodriguez 2:21
right? That makes sense. Is there any case where you think that we’re past the pain point of commercial real estate? It would be a good idea to get into the space as an investor, or that’s really, you think, an area that it’s way past this prime, giving, you know, remote work and the the amount of online shopping and and shipping right, where people are not really going to malls and that sort of
Chris Casey 2:50
thing, yeah, there’s certainly structural changes that have taken place, whether they were just natural, like you’re talking about home deliveries, was Amazon and Walmart, etc, or if you’re talking about not natural, Like the lockdowns, which create a whole bunch of disruption the office space in particular. But, you know, the commercial space is obviously quite large, so there’s a lot more besides office you know, there’s hospitality, there’s a whole bunch of things you look at. So as far as when to get back in, I’m not sure, you know, I think anything once it falls 20, 30% it’s worth looking at. However, like I said before, real estate is very local, so I would be very hesitant. Even with the new administration, I’d be very hesitant to get in in blue states, certain cities could be, continue to be problems, whether it’s crime, what have you, for some time. So in general, I think the risk, there’s a lot of risks still there, and still, until you get paid for it by prices coming down, you may want to hold off.
Mario Rodriguez 3:49
Yeah, that makes sense. It’s also like a very contrarian stance, right, waiting for the pain this 20, 30% pullback, as you mentioned, and then to get back in but it sounds like you need real local knowledge when it comes to real estate investing, I
Chris Casey 4:06
would say, and industry expertise. So if you’re going to invest in hospitality, you better know that industry right? And this is not unusual whenever you have a big decrease, because some people may be shocked, we’re talking about this, you know, five years after lockdowns. But there’s a couple reasons we are one is that, like I mentioned, there’s a lot of debt to be refinanced, so that’s a big problem. Two is that there’s always a lag. And you see this in any industry, but especially privately held businesses and real estate, where there’s a lag between the bid and the ask, what the what the sellers and buyers are willing to pay. It takes them a long time to come back to an equilibrium where they can clear the market. And we’re probably not there yet. It’s probably got to be it’s probably got to fall a little bit more,
Mario Rodriguez 4:49
right? Sounds like there could be a lot more pain, and probably for the banks, right? Yeah, okay, let’s, uh, let’s go to a second question from. Community. And this is from uh Manish Doshi, 5915,
Unknown Speaker 5:05
is he’s wondering if it makes sense to buy the 10 year treasury right now. And what’s your take on that idea? Oh
Chris Casey 5:11
boy. Well, what I would say is that we’re not big proponents of long term bonds, and we haven’t been for we haven’t been for some time. We’re at the very short end of the range. I think there’s a lot of potential problems at the long end of the bond duration, primarily because I think the US fiscal situation, it’s been out of hand for some time. But I think this may be the year where people start to realize it’s out of hand. So just put some numbers to it. You got around 37 trillion in debt. The government brings in less than 5 trillion. They’re probably going to run a deficit this year of two. And you could make an argument that things are going to get better if the administration cut the budget quite a bit, cut spending 20, 30% then it’s a different conversation we’re having. But the reality is, and we haven’t seen it yet, but in a month or so, we’re going to see their note, their new proposal, their budget proposal, and I’m pretty sure spending is going to go up, not down. Now, they may promise a whole bunch of cuts over next 10 years, but we’ve seen how that really plays out when you promise something in the future, and if they don’t do it this year, as far as cutting the budget, I don’t think they’re going to be able to do it next year, because then you have people congressmen, looking at re election, it’s going to make things very difficult. This was the real opportunity to do something. And so I think by the end of the year to fully answer the question, I think that’s when interest rates may go up. I think that’s when people have real concerns about the fiscal situation. That’s when I think we’re going to have our own guilt moment. Guilt is a reference to the British 10 year treasury, which went up basically a full percentage point, 100 basis points in about four days back in October of 2022 so that can happen here. And so I’d be very reluctant to invest in long term bonds at this point in time. It
Mario Rodriguez 7:00
would be really, really scary if we have that bond tantrum, right, that the vigilantes coming back, and you’ve talked about this in the past, right, how unsustainable the fiscal situation for the states is, and that, you know, the market just might ask for Way higher real yields that we that we have right now,
Chris Casey 7:25
and by the way, it’s especially it’s especially more likely now given what I would call the US regime’s financial repression of various state actors, right so when You start taking offline, historically, buyers of treasuries, whether you’re talking about the Chinese, the Japanese, Russians, what have you that that means there’s just less people willing to buy what you have. And if you start doing that enough, that just compounds the issue. And I think you are going to have higher interest rates down the road here,
Mario Rodriguez 7:57
right? Yeah, it might. It might have to happen to attract those buyers, right? Or else you only have the Fed as a buyer, and that it just means hyperinflation. There’s some people that think that Hyperinflation is really the only answer to tackle the debt load. Is there then a credit instrument that you think would give people, you know, safety of principle, that they will get their money back, but still earn some return right now, like short term debt instruments or something like that, to kind of follow up, on, on, on the viewers question, what do you think? Sure?
Chris Casey 8:33
You know I should first, I forgot to mention, you know, not only should you be worried about long term bonds, just given interest rate risk. But with with Treasury bills, in particular treasury bonds, you have the issue of what I call a real solvency. So we talked about the physical situation, which may call for higher interest rates on top of that. I mean, default is not out of the question. Now, like you alluded to, I think it will be a stealth default, where they effectively inflate the currency so they never, you know, rescind or renounce, you know, their obligations directly. I do see that that happening down the road, as far as what to do then, if you want longer duration, it’s really just goes to the credit worthiness. You know, there’s plenty of companies, obviously the issue stuff as long as the credit, the credit is there. That may be something you want to look at, but US Treasuries, I think, could be very problematic for not too distant future, for some time, pretty
Mario Rodriguez 9:30
incredible, considering that Treasury needs to be, you know, the risk free financial instrument. It’s amazing that we’ve come to this stage.
Chris Casey 9:40
Okay, still call it the risk free instrument. And you know, it goes beyond just commentary, of saying that that’s actually what announced an analyst would use correct to calculate future cash flow. So it does affect pricing across the board. And I have long thought now that we have, I think the third rating agency finally downgraded us debts. There. Should be a premium attached to US debt when you’re making those calculations, because otherwise it throws everything off. But I do believe, yeah, US Treasuries are no longer risk free instruments, and they haven’t been for some time. Correct?
Mario Rodriguez 10:12
Yeah, great answer. Let’s go to the next question that comes from Timothy. I’m sorry. I’m butching your name, Timothy, but Timothy or Harley, he 5391, he wants to hear your thoughts on oil. It’s still a good investment right now, or has that ship sailed?
Chris Casey 10:30
Well, I would say that energy in general, we like we probably like it for two reasons. Number one, from a valuation perspective, energy is one of the few sectors where you’re actually going to have real value and you’re so that’s where you’re going to find dividend yield, right? It’s one of the few areas that’s actually going to have stable, nice dividends. So that’s one reason we like energy in general. The other is that I am a firm believer that the AI trend is a nice, very strong, long term trend that everyone needs to be invested in, and we view energy as a stealth way to do that, because reality is, whether it’s electrical output or distribution, there’s a massive amount of investment that needs to happen the United States alone to fulfill ai demand for electricity energy consumption, and the only way to do it is that to massively scale up US energy. And as far as that relates to that, you’ll be great if we could do coal. I don’t think that’s really going to happen. So I think natural gas is the most likely contributor to expanded energy output in us, right?
Mario Rodriguez 11:33
And there’s a lot of natural gas in North America. Hand oil for that. Man, yeah, lot of
Chris Casey 11:39
natural gas. It’s here, and now we can start exporting it too, because it’s, it’s a kind of a local market, until you’re able to
Mario Rodriguez 11:46
between, uh, European, what the price that the Europeans pay versus the the gas price for the states, right? You just need those the capacity for liquid, liquefied natural gas. Chris, but thinking about a potential recession, right? There’s a lot of talk of recession right now that, particularly with tariffs on China of 145% that completely collapse as commerce between the US and China, or likely will. Would it oil, the oil, the price of oil, have an impact. We’ve seen actually, the price of oil come down quite substantially in the last month or so. That’s
Chris Casey 12:23
absolutely true. But I think, and this is a think, a problem I made earlier in my career, of being too focused on demand and being too judgmental as to where price movements will be solely based on demand. Because the reality is, supply is a big point too, and over the last four years, you had a very hostile us regime to any energy of any flavor, outside of wind and solar, right? So when you have that kind of hostility, when you have that disincentives that are placed by various governments, so it’s not unique to the United States by any means, right? We have that in Europe, I think there’s been a massive under build by energy companies, as far as looking for capacity expansion, looking for reserves that’s probably been underly funded over the last couple years. And that obviously changes quite more slowly than demand does. So that could be a long term trend where supply needs to catch up and it’s just not able to. So you’re right. Demand does have a negative effect in price. I could argue a lot of that may be already baked into the current price, but even to the extent it’s not, I think supply will reassert itself here down the road. Okay,
Mario Rodriguez 13:34
let’s go to the next question. Thank you, Chris. So Chris Bailey, 8565, sees Bitcoin as a safe haven in these bulletin times. How do you think crypto fits into today’s market picture? Well,
Chris Casey 13:49
let me first say that we’re big believers in Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in general. We’re probably the earliest adopters as far as wealth managers out there. I mean, we wrote our first article in 2014 comparing Bitcoin to gold, arguing you should own both. We we probably had our first clients in it back in 2013 so we’re long time cryptocurrency advocates, having said that I would never call it a safe haven, and I think the market proved it as such in the spring of 2020 when Bitcoin got hurt quite a bit during the lockdowns. Ultimately, there’s a downturn in the markets, downturn in the stock market. You’re going to have a liquidity crisis where everyone’s selling everything and and Bitcoin will not escape that. Now, on the other hand, on the other side of this, is that I mentioned this budgetary crisis, which I think we’re going to have, or I should say, fiscal crisis, and if that happens, I think Bitcoin will do very well, as well as other cryptos that act as monetary substitutes in a such scenario, just like I think precious metals will. So you have kind of some, some counteracting forces here, right? We have what I think is a long term good trend in crypto. But. On the other hand, you could argue, if there’s a liquidity crisis at the same time, there’s any kind of stock market downturn, you could see some big price hits. Makes
Mario Rodriguez 15:09
sense. And for a typical portfolio, and obviously, I guess, it would depend on the person you’re you’re advising, the person’s age, what sort of percentage are you recommending for Bitcoin, slash crypto, considering also what you said, right? It’s, in your opinion, it’s not a safe haven, the same way that gold is,
Chris Casey 15:30
what varies quite a bit. And obviously everyone has like you alluded to, with age, different risk profiles, etc, I would say that it’s one of our positions that probably has the greatest range, right, where we’ll have clients with quite a large percentage of their assets and cryptocurrencies, but that’s what they prefer. That’s what they want. So I would say it’s the biggest range we have any asset. But it would not be common to see people kind of a floor of like a two to 3% I think is reasonable at any given point in time, right?
Mario Rodriguez 16:01
Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. That makes sense. Interesting. Let’s, uh, go to the next question then Chris. And that is from Dan, the man. The man’s the man’s male, I guess that that’s his, uh, his handle. Now, he says he’s big on physical gold, but of course, there are a lot of ways to invest in gold, like ETFs and mining stocks. If someone wants gold exposure today, what do you think is the best approach? Well, there’s
Chris Casey 16:26
a couple different ways to look at this. We break physical gold. And by the way, this question is not referring to silver as well, but there’s that’s a whole different conversation. As far as incorporating silver as well, right? We break into three buckets. So at the one hand, we believe we’re strong believers. Everyone should have some physical gold. Physical gold you can get your hands on if you need it. That’s bucket one. Bucket two would be what I would call the securitized substitutes for physical gold. So like an ETF that would hold physical gold, and we would primarily own that just because it facilitates the buying and selling, you know, changing exposure. It facilitates toggling between silver and gold, etc. So that’s bucket two. Bucket three would be the miners, and they do have their place right now. You can make an argument that the miners are extremely well positioned. You have costs are finally falling for them. After years of inflation energy increases, you have record high gold prices. So everything’s aligned up very well. And on top of that, I haven’t seen a lot of bubble type talk about miners right now, so you don’t have people talking about how much money they made in miners, or you don’t see commercials or anything like that, for for gold in general, as well. This is one of these bull markets. It’s a little bit strange, but it’s primarily been driven by demand from central banks, other actors, not from the main public. So the public is kind of under invested. So that would also argue for miners going up, right? Because it’s going to be an easy way for them to get some gold exposure. However, miners do have the issue of that. They’re gold stocks. And first and foremost, they are stocks. They will trade like stocks. We have a downturn in the s, p5, 100. You will have a most likely a hit to gold stocks. So if you don’t have exposure, it’s something you should consider. If you do, I would just make sure it’s sized correctly, because I could see some temporary pain, although I do see a very nice long term future for gold miners.
Mario Rodriguez 18:29
Yeah, I certainly agree, just like with oil, right, the gold miners are positioned like they haven’t in decades, I would say, right, with cleaner balance sheets and only sustaining costs. So What? What? What it costs for mine to produce their own says gold. So that means just a ton of cash flow, of positive cash flow with gold price as it is right now,
Chris Casey 18:52
and they’re in their better management than they have in previous So, yes, right? Yeah, gold miners tend to do really stupid things when the gold price is high. So they’ll overpay for assets, right? They’ll, they’ll do a whole bunch of things that they should not do. And if anything, my biggest concern would be some gold miners are maybe diversifying away from gold, right? That’d be, like maybe my biggest concern with some of them. But yeah, it’s kind of a new ball game where you have, I think, just better management overall. The fundamentals are very nice, but again, that may not translate into nice return in the stocks. We’ll have to wait and see.
Mario Rodriguez 19:27
Yeah, absolutely. It’s certainly very, very interesting. And to PB piggyback on my follow up question about Bitcoin and the portfolio location. You recommended clients. What do you recommend in terms of physical gold and miners, is it something similar to Bitcoin, or probably a little bit more?
Chris Casey 19:48
Yeah, it’s it would be higher our pressure, smells, exposure in general, if you include all the different buckets, because I do view that as a necessary, you know, ball work against what I see is this. School irresponsibility coming down the pike here fairly soon. So no, we have a fairly large precious metals we have for some time, but it’s also quite a bit larger, obviously, since the beginning of 2024 since gold’s up, you know, by two thirds since then, literally. So if anything, we may have to trim back. And if we do that, it doesn’t mean anything about our prognosis for gold. It’s simply because of just sizing decisions with clients.
Mario Rodriguez 20:26
Thank you, Chris. Let’s move to the next question. So Thomas Geld, D 3c, says he’s basically hunker down, wow, holding mostly cash and only spending on essentials. Do you think that’s a good strategy these days, or could it end up hurting him?
Chris Casey 20:44
Well, it’s an easy strategy to fall into, right? Because it’s, there’s so much, there’s so many reasons to be fearful of a number of things out there. It’s very easy. Just say, I’m just going to take my cash, gold bullets, whatever it is, go live in a cave. I mean, it’s a very seemingly reassuring type position. But the reality is, I don’t think that ever works, except in the extreme, extreme circumstances. Everything’s a matter of probabilities, and that you have to weigh. So what is the probabilities that we’re going to have a mass of 1929, you know, type Great Depression? What’s the probability that we have a budgetary crisis, an interest rate spike, what’s the probability that inflation then follows? And these are all questions that people should look at, but in so doing, I would never say 100% I’m selling everything. I’m just going to hold in cash, because reality is, you could sit like that for years, and that may be what happens if you do that, you miss a lot of opportunities. So we’re not market timers per se, although I think it has a place at major inflection points right now, may very well be one of them that that’s absolutely true. So this may work out for him, if that’s what he wants to do. I prefer the tactic of at least investing in some equities, some bonds, what have you. You You can always add to it on any downturn, so at least I wouldn’t get out completely, but, but look to add with a healthy cash position. So if you’re at 20 to 30% equities, I think that’s a much better strategy than if we’re at zero,
Mario Rodriguez 22:13
right? Yeah, make sense, right? It makes a lot of sense. You can’t really time the market and it what you’re saying is mostly about looking for opportunities. Okay, let’s go to Wayne the next question. Thank you, Chris, and this is from Ricky Zed CV. He thinks now’s the time to move out of the US stocks and into European or German stocks in particular. What do you think about that move? Should US investors start to see and seek foreign markets? You
Chris Casey 22:45
know, I’ve seen a lot of commentary on this recently. A lot of lot of people have a similar investment thesis, and it’s pretty simple, right? Europe is very comparable to us in a lot of ways. Europe, especially Germany, is very cheap right now, I would see statistics. People may say it’s 30, 40% cheaper and historically, that that’s a big anomaly, right? So people would argue you should definitely diversify outside the US and buy some so called cheap European stocks. There’s a couple problems with that thesis, though. One is that I could argue the US market is overvalued by 40, 50% and if you if you believe that, then you could argue that, well, maybe Europe is still at a premium. It’s not cheap, you know, only on a relative basis. That’s one problem. The other problem is that Europe has some of the same horrible issues that the United States has, but they also have their own unique issues too. So for instance, immigration is a problem for both countries right now, probably a bigger one for Europe, I would argue. But Europe also has the issue of energy, okay? They’re extremely energy dependent on, you know, foreign actors. That’s a big deal. It’s a big deal if you’re gonna invest in German industry, if they can’t power it themselves, right? Or energy costs are just cost prohibitive to actually make anything there Right? That’s a real concern. And the other issue, I think this Russo Ukraine war will become increasingly an issue for Europe, because assuming we don’t have peace, you definitely have the US pulling back as far as support for Ukraine. And when you do that, we’re seeing a lot of European actors step in fairly aggressively, promising aid, promising things the US never even talked about, right, like boots on the ground or what have you. So that I think could become an I don’t think it will be, but it could become an increasingly European issue, a European concern. So I think all things being equal, yes, Europe’s cheaper based on pretty much any metric, but there’s some very good reasons maybe, why it is cheaper, in my mind, yeah,
Mario Rodriguez 24:42
right. It’s, it comes to model. So, you know, foreign markets from third world, third world countries, I think we’re calling it. We call them developing countries. And you’re exactly right. They’re cheap for a reason. There’s lack of rule, law, there’s, you know, there’s, there’s just a lack of. Corporate Governance, proper practices. But still, is there any market outside the US that thinks that you think deserves some attention from US investors, so that they can precisely move away from that overvaluedness of the the US market, particularly in in the mega caps, perhaps, I don’t know, Canada might be just, just north of the border, right? Yeah,
Chris Casey 25:29
well, I’ve looked at, you know that the same argument like you mentioned, is made with emerging markets, right? They’re, they’re cheap, they’re historically cheap. Time to look at them, we’re a little bit more concerned about emerging markets, because I think they’re basically a way to play China. And when you do, I concerned about China, and so therefore I would think they get hurt, right, for different reasons, right? So I see that argument a lot. As far as you look around the world, where are things cheap? Well, they’re cheap in a lot of areas that people don’t want to talk about, right? Or they can’t physically, actually do anything about it. So for instance, like Russia’s or something like that. So we’ll have to see how it plays out. Nothing’s cheap right now, yeah, I would say in the world, but certainly us is way up there, along with India and some other countries, as far as being historically, all time highs type expensive. So I can’t pinpoint any particular areas, any particular countries. So I’d say this is where you got to be.
Mario Rodriguez 26:22
You know, there’s been a lot of debate among wealthy and viewers about where the market’s headed. Obviously, there’s a lot of uncertainty right now. You know, Kai Europe, bn, three, DP, one of our YouTube viewers thinks he we could see 4600 or more on the I guess that’s the S, p5, 100 or he, but he did not say then, ha, masala says it’s time to short stocks. And Manny Q zero points out that historically, it’s marked to buy when the market is down 20% so actually, for the for viewers watching out there a 20% a market that is 20% down is considered officially a bear market. So with all these different views, are you telling clients right now what is your expectation for Yeah, Markham, in the coming months, maybe in the next year. Well, I think
Chris Casey 27:15
we’re not what I call a state of execution period. It’s a little bit I think things are on hold until we see this budget. That’s kind of the next shoe to drop. It’s the same time next budget’s unveiled, when we have this moratorium on higher tariffs. So that’ll be lifted, and we’ll see how that plays out if there’s not a number of deals. So I’d say all bets are off. The market could go dramatically lower based on either of those, if not a combination of both, there’s a real risk of that, as far as different ways to play it. One gentleman there mentioned shorting stocks could be a very dangerous game. God forbid you short something like Gamestop and roaring kitty starts talking about it and goes up a factor of two, or what have you. I think options are always a great way to manage a portfolio’s risk, right? Whether it’s you can for a couple reasons, you can really dial in and and assess or or have less risk at particular areas of the portfolio. You have limited exposure, right? Unlike a shorting of stock, where theoretically you have unlimited exposure, you have very limited exposure with options. That’s a good way to do it, as far as whether or not you should buy any downturn. Well, that’s what everyone’s been trained to do. Right for the last 30 years? We’ve seen that time and time again, probably starting with 87 and Greenspan with that that market pullback, I would say that you can’t necessarily trust the Fed to do the exact same thing, perhaps under this administration, for various reasons. Number one, I think they’d have a hard time justifying a rate cut purely based on stock market performance, right? I know it’s it’s a well hidden secret that is one of their so called mandates, but the reality is that just that just doesn’t make a lot of sense from a from an optics standpoint. So I don’t necessarily know if they would do that unless there’s a real downturn in the economy. So different ways to play this definitely win short stocks, I would be very defensive. But although I disagree with their comment that it’s always a time to buy when it’s down 20% I’d say it’s a time to nibble, right? You start and you increase your exposure as things go down. There’s nothing wrong with doing that. There were some real bargains here recently, which may or not still exist, but there’s, there’s always opportunities. So you know, they should definitely keep that in mind when they’re buying. I would keep a healthy reserve to keep buying on future decreases as well,
Mario Rodriguez 29:46
right? So, no more fat. Put, no more fat. Put, it may exist.
Chris Casey 29:52
I’m just saying it’s I could, I could see them reacting. Maybe it’s not a spite for Trump. Who knows? There’s a lot of motivation, I think to so called. Assert their independence, when, in reality, that’s just, you know, your thumb in their nose are at Trump. So we’ll see how it plays out. But I don’t think you can automatically assume there is a put, although there may very well be
Mario Rodriguez 30:12
right. Yeah, that makes sense, Chris. There’s no more questions. And I want to encourage our viewers to please comment and share with us their questions for a future episode with you. But before we go, can I ask you where viewers kind can find you? Where can I get in
Chris Casey 30:35
touch with you? Yeah, I’d say the two best resources would be our website, windrockwealth.com we have a research page there, which is pretty much everything we’ve ever written or spoken on, including all of our wealthion podcasts. And then also, I think X is a great way to find us. So at wind rock wealth, find us there. We try to post everything, Latest News, etc,
Mario Rodriguez 30:56
correct. Yeah. Then, as a reminder to viewers, if you go to wealthy.com forward, slash free. You can also fill up that form and get in touch with win rock and Chris and their and his team directly. Well, Chris, I want to thank you very much for joining us. This was a very interesting, super insightful I learned quite a lot today from you. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mario. You
