Future of Wealth: Is Bitcoin Displacing Gold as the Ultimate Asset?

Natalie Brunell 0:00
It’s the best performing asset of the last decade. And so when you zoom out, I know that in the short term, it’s very volatile. But when you zoom out, it only increases your purchasing power. And it goes up in terms of its denomination in US dollars, which are frequently, consistently losing purchasing power. And it’s really sad because that affects the working class the most, the best qualities of Bitcoin and that the fact that it’s this digital form of hard money, or it’s decentralization, the fact that no one can control it, no one can manipulate it. No one can influence the protocol it is truly distributed globally. And second, that it’s absolutely finite and scarce. If there was suddenly to be a ton of demand for gold, you would see a lot of mining companies accelerate their their their actions to to get gold out of the ground.

James Connor 0:56
Hi, and welcome to Wealtion. I’m James Connor. Before we get on with the interview, I want to make sure you subscribe to our channel, Wealthion.com And doing so will help me keep my job. also hit that notification button to be kept up to date on future events. We have some amazing interviews coming up in the coming weeks, and months that will help you manage your financial well being.

Today, my guest is Natalie Brunello and Natalie runs a podcast called coin stories which has over 120,000 subscribers and averages over 1.5 million listens in views per month. And we’re going to hear Natalie’s views on Bitcoin and where she thinks the price is going in the coming months and also why she prefers Bitcoin over gold. Hi, Natalie, thank you for joining us today. How are things in St. Louis? Hi, thank

Natalie Brunell 1:45
you so much for having me. Things are good. It’s a little bit of a cloudy day but but always a pleasure being here.

James Connor 1:51
Well, I have spoken to people all over North America, but I have yet to speak to somebody in St. Louis. I know you grew up in Chicago, you went to school in Southern California. How what brought you to St. Louis?

Natalie Brunell 2:03
Sure. So I actually had never been to St. Louis growing up even though Chicago’s only a four and a half hour drive away. I actually came out here for the first time to host a Bitcoin educational seminar, which is part of what I do. And I didn’t know what to expect, I knew that I really was looking for a place to move to I wanted to leave California because it had changed so much in the time that I was living there. And I was really pleasantly surprised by St. Louis. The best comparison I can make is, I grew up in like 1990s Chicago suburbs, and I am very nostalgic about those times. And that’s what St. Louis felt like. To me. It felt like 1990s Americana, people were really really friendly and nice. The cost of living is great. The quality of life is high the education system is is better here than in many places. And I just thought what a great place. I don’t want to live in a big city anymore. So I’m just gonna pull the trigger and try it out here.

James Connor 3:03
Oh, that’s a great story. And but you went to school in Southern California, I don’t think I could think of a better place to go to university than Malibu. Why did you leave there? Sure.

Natalie Brunell 3:13
So I mean, I’ve I first left to go work in the real world. I couldn’t just stare at the ocean from Pepperdine University. But I worked all up and down California for my news career, I worked in Palm Springs, I worked in the State Capitol in Sacramento, moved back to Los Angeles and California has changed a lot in the last decade and more. And it’s a beautiful place. I mean, you can’t beat the weather and having a the beach drive away. But in terms of just the social issues that that the state is facing, and that I would be reporting on when I was when I was a reporter there. I just felt like things were going in the wrong direction. And I didn’t want to pay for the high cost of living when I saw the quality of life really deteriorating. interesting

James Connor 3:59
comments, and I’m gonna have to get to St. Louis sometimes, and maybe we can do an impression interview. But you are always attending conferences all over the world, both as a guest and also as a speaker. And you recently went to a conference called the Bitcoin Atlantis conference in Madeira. And given its location, it’s 400 miles off the coast of Morocco, in the middle of the Atlantic, but given its location, did anybody show up for the conference? You

Natalie Brunell 4:24
know what it was packed? I expected for there to maybe be 100 to 200 people and there were hundreds who came out specifically because they believe in Bitcoin.

James Connor 4:37
Interesting. And I have of course, I’ve never been to my dear, but I have been to mainland Portugal. I’ve been in the Azores. I think it’s the most underrated place in Europe. What was the island of Madeira, like was how was the culture? How were the people?

Natalie Brunell 4:50
You know, it was really amazing. I had heard great things about Madeira. People call it the Hawaii of Europe. It is it’s like this very remote island very small. I’m very difficult to fly into actually because of the crosswind. So watch out for that when you travel there, but just a beautiful community very warm and very, very progressive. When it comes to adopting Bitcoin, there are a lot of people that have moved there specifically, because they’re Bitcoin proponents and advocates and the governance there is very friendly to this digital asset and they want to grow its adoption. There are a lot of efforts out there to educate more people. And it was really interesting to see because there is this this growing movement, I mean, really all over the world, but there are pockets in the circular economies that are emerging from everywhere, you know, from Europe, all the way to Central America and Asia. And and they’re trying to get bitcoin to be used more frequently by everyday people, because that’s who bitcoin is really for. So it was inspiring to see that the conference was really great. And I hope to go go back soon.

James Connor 5:52
So I want to get your backstory on on how you got into Bitcoin. You’re not a finance person, you’re a journalist by profession. Tell us your backstory. How did you get into this area?

Natalie Brunell 6:03
Sure. So my background is mainstream media. I was an investigative reporter and anchor for more than a decade. But I think I have to start my story a little bit before that, because I did not know that the seeds for Bitcoin were planted long before I actually learned about it. I’m a first generation immigrant, my family’s from Poland, my parents grew up under communism. And they were really driven to come to the United States for the American dream and for economic hope and social mobility, which really didn’t exist where they’re from. So they tried their hardest with the visa lotteries. And they were not able to come to the United States until my mom was almost 39. And my dad was 41. And when they came, I was five years old. And they started over, they had to learn the language, I saw them working multiple jobs, I mean, just working tirelessly to try to offer a better life for their children, which which really left an imprint on me. And they worked, you know, multiple jobs weekends, my dad would get up like three o’clock in the morning to scrape the snow off off the car, just to just to head all the way to work. And when the great financial crisis hit, I was in college, they had just been able to finally afford a very modest townhome in the suburbs of Chicago. And the great financial crisis hit and they went under, they had to file for bankruptcy. And they were one of about 10 million American families who lost their homes. And I just remember feeling so confused, because this was again the land of the American dream and opportunity. And my parents always played by the rules, and they worked super, super hard. How could this happen? And we saw bankers getting bailed out. And so I think that planted a seed. And the way that it manifested at first for me was I wanted to root out corruption. So I went into journalism with this very strong desire and motivation to call out the injustices in the system, which I at first attributed only to politics, I thought, and really, I thought it was, you know, a system of greed that capitalism was bad that we we’ve allowed this wealth concentration that the people at the top are taking advantage. But I didn’t know that I did not know how money worked and what money is and what money printing is. And so I went on a very humbling journey. When I discovered Bitcoin in 2017, I was still working as a reporter. At first, I didn’t take it very seriously. And it frankly took me years to understand I had to really dig into the technology and why are people saying Bitcoin not crypto, and what is money? And why is money printing bad? And I emerged from that journey, but really firmly convicted that that Bitcoin is our best hope for the future and fixing the most pressing issues that that we face as a society, not just here in the United States. But globally, I think we need to fix what’s most broken in our system, which is the money and the incentives in our financial structures. And I think that Bitcoin is hope for people around the world. And so I’ve dedicated I’ve switched from, from journalism to focusing solely on Bitcoin education and Bitcoin content.

James Connor 9:12
Fascinating story. And a couple of things I want to ask you about, first of all, quite often people that come from Eastern European countries, or countries done in South America, they’re big believers in gold, okay, for the very reasons that you mentioned because of inflation because of instability within the government system. Were your parents involved in gold at all? Do they believe in gold? And I’m wondering why you didn’t believe in gold, or have an interest in gold or Bitcoin?

Natalie Brunell 9:41
Well, completely. I mean, my parents are both sound and hard money bugs and they weren’t gold bugs. They still own gold and, and I always when I was younger, I didn’t understand why my mom would collect coins, silver and gold coins, but it does speak to her experience under communism. And that idea of it’s important to have an asset that is outside of the reach of, of government really, but because of its physical nature, I started to appreciate Bitcoin more because gold being physical, you can’t transport it over long distances very easily, especially large, large quantities of it, right? It’s it’s physical, I won’t say necessarily defect, but the fact that it is physical tends to make it centralized within bank reserves and vaults. And so then it gets papered over. And I’ve talked about that recently on, like gold versus Bitcoin debates. And I hate to pin the two against each other, because I actually think that gold would be the second best option, if we didn’t have Bitcoin, I would totally be all about gold. But But Bitcoin I think, improves upon the great properties that gold already has. And it’s for the digital world and the digital economy that we live in today. So it’s not that gold is bad, because I don’t feel that way. And my parents still invest in gold. But I think Bitcoin is better, and it improves upon gold. And that’s what makes me really excited about it. So

James Connor 11:07
you listed a couple of advantages or benefits of owning Bitcoin, but maybe you can tell us a few more. Why as an investor, should I allocate resources toward Bitcoin? Well,

Natalie Brunell 11:18
there are so many reasons. I mean, first of all, if you look strictly at performance, it’s the best performing asset of the last decade. And so when you zoom out, I know that in the short term, it’s very volatile. But when you zoom out, it only increases your purchasing power. And it goes up in terms of its denomination and US dollars, which are frequently, consistently losing purchasing power. And it’s really sad, because that affects the working class the most, the best qualities of Bitcoin and that the fact that it’s this digital form of hard money, or its decentralization, the fact that no one can control it, no one can manipulate it. No one can influence the protocol, it is truly distributed globally. And second, that it’s absolutely finite and scarce. If there was suddenly to be a ton of demand for gold, you would see a lot of mining companies accelerate their their their actions to get gold out of the ground, there will be new mining companies sprouting up and you can find more gold to an extent the inflation rate is about 1.5 to 2% a year. But with Bitcoin, no matter how much energy you expend, there will never be more than 21 million Bitcoin, it has an absolute finite cap. And we’ve really never had something like that, especially when it comes to something that’s digital digital scarcity. So it’s it’s a human innovation, but it’s also it captures the best properties that make good money so that you can hold on to it for the future. And that’s what really bitcoin is, it’s a savings technology for you to be able to capture the value of what you work so hard to earn in whatever currency and allow it to maintain and grow in value over the long run because the 160 currencies that exist around the world are just falling in value to scarce hard assets like Bitcoin. You

James Connor 13:08
mentioned one of the benefits of Bitcoin is decentralization and Jim Bianco, he’s a big believer in Bitcoin, but he’s against Bitcoin ETFs. And he says, that’s really the beginning of centralization. Or in other words, centralized, centralizing the ownership of a decentralized asset goes against everything Bitcoin represents, what are your views on this?

Natalie Brunell 13:30
So I am of the camp that everything is actually a creative to Bitcoin, everything that helps adoption grow is good for the network. I think that ETFs could be a good starting point for some people because it’s a very familiar investment vehicle. And it’s the only type of investment vehicle that some entities and investors can invest in. So they can’t necessarily purchase bought Bitcoin for pension funds or RIAs are certain types of investors, but they can allocate with these Bitcoin ETFs. The other thing I think that is missing from that conversation, when people say that, Oh, these these legendary firms are coming in and they’re going to centralize Bitcoin, nothing can centralize Bitcoin, because no matter how many Bitcoins are purchased by these Wall Street firms, they will have no influence over the protocol, they cannot change Bitcoin. And if you see over over time, if you look at two charts and one chart, is Bitcoin distribution, like where it is it distributed in very few hands, or is it is it getting diffused to more and more people, you see Bitcoin actually getting more and more diffused, more and more people are owning it, and it’s getting more spread globally in terms of ownership. If you look at Fiat our current system, and again, it doesn’t matter what currency but let’s just say the US dollar since that’s the global reserve currency, it tends to pool over time in fewer and fewer hands, which is why we see such wealth concentration emerge. So the important thing to remember about Bitcoin is its decentralized nature and incentive system I’m with the proof of work consensus mechanism that was designed at its core incentivizes it to be more and more distributed over time. And no one can change or alter the protocol. And so, again, it’s just it’s a really fascinating invention that we came to. Not it didn’t, it wasn’t formed and invented in a vacuum. I mean, it took 40 years for decades of research and development within the computer science and programming world to come to a place where we can have something like Bitcoin. And then it grew, I mean, bottom up, it emerged from the free market, it wasn’t imposed on us top down by any government, it emerged, like most good monies are supposed to emerge through just the commodities market and us choosing it and believing that it will continue to go up in the future. So I just am really inspired by how Bitcoin has grown, because it’s only been 15 years, and it’s already captured a 1.2 to $3 trillion market cap, which is starting to eat its way into gold.

James Connor 16:02
Yes, it is. So let’s talk about that you already listed or went through some of the benefits, why you prefer gold over Bitcoin, one of them it had to do with transferability, or the ability to transfer or transport a large amount of it. And I would agree with that, but I don’t think too many people are walking around with kilos worth of gold. But maybe you can give us some other reasons why you think Bitcoin is a better investment?

Natalie Brunell 16:26
Sure, well, I mean, let’s just talk about some of the properties that make for good money that stores value over the long term. And again, a lot of these, it has a lot in common with gold, but I think improves upon gold. So divisibility you can divide one bitcoin into 100 million Satoshis. And you could transfer those Satoshis globally, for literally pennies, especially if you use a secondary layer like the Lightning Network, you can send it essentially for free globally, anywhere in the world. Gold is divisible but you know you have denominations of coins who can verify the coins are they pure gold? Can you carry those coins everywhere? You can’t you certainly can’t transfer one from here to Italy in a matter of seconds. Let’s see scarcity. Bitcoin is now more hard and more scarce than gold. Its inflation rate after this latest having actually makes it a harder asset than gold. So it’s both of them are obviously very scarce assets. But Bitcoin now exceeds gold in terms of its scarcity fungibility? Well, I mean, we’ve have governments who have minted gold coins, and sometimes they’ve resorted to things like coin clipping where they dilute with other metals. And so really you have to verify what is in that gold coin and are they fungible, are is one gold coin like the other with Bitcoin, everything is transparent, it’s digital, it’s it’s it’s ones and zeros. It’s code that anyone can verify at any time, and it’s open and accessible to the world. So like I said, I mean, every property that gold has, which makes it a great store of value for I would say the analog world is improved upon by Bitcoin for the digital future. So

James Connor 18:02
let’s talk about performance. Now you did mention is the number one performing asset of all time, and even in 2023, Bitcoin was up 160%, it’s up 50% in 2024, really, like four or five months into the year, gold is up 10 or 15% year to date, which was a big move for gold, by the way. But do you think Bitcoin is overtaking gold is an investment class? And do you think gold is a dying asset? Actually, no,

Natalie Brunell 18:31
I think in the near term both will strengthen as it becomes really apparent to more and more people around the world that these debt levels we’re running are not sustainable. And so I think people are actually going to turn away from bonds and US Treasuries, which have been long considered the risk free asset to harder monies like gold and Bitcoin. I think that both of them will be the beneficiary. So I actually think that gold’s market cap will increase. But if bitcoin didn’t exist, I think that Bitcoin era, gold’s market cap would increase even more, but I think Bitcoin will eat into that and people will demand Bitcoin more because of its its decentralized nature. Its absolute scarcity, all the properties we already talked about, I think over the next decade, equities will also perform well because we just know from history and not just from United States recent history, but from global monetary history that a government that’s in trouble and has a lot of debt will always turn to debasement and will continue to print more money in order to service the debt, debasing and destroying everyone’s purchasing power. And that’s why hard scarce assets are really important. I think property will perform well, I think gold will perform well. I think equities will perform well, of course, of course, a lot of these on a nominal basis, not in real terms because of the inflation rate that is going to continue to accelerate. And I think Bitcoin is one of the safest places that people can store their wealth, but I think it’s very important for people to take The time to educate themselves on it especially because Bitcoin in the short term is extremely volatile, you need to be able to stomach the ups and downs in the near term in the, you know, one to three years that you might hold it at first. And then four to five years out, as you look at any person who has held Bitcoin, they’re in the green if they hold for that long, so it’s a long term savings plan. It’s not something that I recommend anyone go in and out of and trade or use leverage with.

James Connor 20:27
And I want to do a deeper dive on volatility. But before we do that, I want to talk about demographics. Because I’ve been to a few Bitcoin conferences, I’ve gone to many gold conferences. And I guess the one thing that really stands out to me is the difference in demographic right. Cryptocurrency or Bitcoin Conference, the demographic is much younger. Whereas when you go to a gold conference, it’s much older. Why do you think the younger generation has tapped into cryptocurrencies and not gold? Well,

Natalie Brunell 20:58
so Bitcoin is a digitally native currency, it was born through the internet. And younger generations are more digitally native, they’ve spent their lives with computers in their hands. I mean, there are people that are like five years old, I see at a restaurant that have an iPad. So I think the fact that they are maneuvering more into digital hard money is really easy to understand, because they only know money as being electronic. Whereas older generations that, you know, remember a time before the computer, I think they like something that is a little bit more tangible. But I always I always push back on that, especially when I have newcomers who are a little bit older, who, by the way, are some of the best Bitcoin advocates out there. I love I love talking to people who are older and just, you know, very, very pro Bitcoin. But they also can acknowledge that most of their wealth has been stored and things you can’t necessarily touch, right? I mean, Google’s algorithm can’t be touched, but everyone invests in Google stock or Microsoft, I mean, we have shifted to a society where we’re D materializing things through technology, and it actually makes them more valuable in many ways, but it drives the cost down. So now we have Spotify, right, where you can have 100 million songs, and you can invest in Spotify stock, and you’re not purchasing like a disc player that can play 12 songs. So technology moves in a certain direction, it D materializes things as it goes. And so bitcoin is really D materializing capital and, and property. And that’s what’s so amazing about it. And so when older generations really grasp that, I think they get very excited because, you know, gold, gold has these amazing properties, but how do you de materialize it and capture those properties? And so bitcoin is sort of the answer to that. And I see I see Bitcoin, you know, is really being for everyone. I think that people who are older and approaching retirement, maybe don’t want to allocate a significant portion of their portfolio, if they don’t want to stomach the short term volatility, which is totally understandable. Whereas young people who have a long time horizon and they’re planning for, you know, 5060 years out, they absolutely should have a bigger chunk of their portfolio in something like Bitcoin.

James Connor 23:14
So one thing that human beings do very well is that we exploit profit potentials. Right? And if people can make a buck doing it, they’re gonna find a way in, I guess my question to you is what’s preventing someone from hacking the Bitcoin code?

Natalie Brunell 23:28
Well, so there’s a lot preventing it, there is a wall of encrypted energy that stands in the way of anyone hacking the Bitcoin network, I mean, people would have to harness the amount of energy that’s equivalent to two US navies to just make an attempt, and it could be caught very, very easily and Bitcoin could, you know, disregard that block and move on to the next. The most beautiful thing about Bitcoin is that everyone voluntarily comes into consensus on the state of the Bitcoin ledger, which is essentially the blockchain. Everyone has to agree that these transactions are legitimate, that no one is double spending, that there isn’t some sort of nefarious hack, and then the blockchain continues on, it’s like, we have this thing tick tock next block, it would be, in my opinion, nearly impossible. I mean, you could have every nation state collude, and then we would have to somehow not know about it so that we can, you know, it would just be sprung upon us in some way for that to even be attempted. And so I think we are we’ve we’ve crossed the event horizon. We are at a point where bitcoin is not hackable, it is incorruptible it is nation state resistant, which is what also makes it such a great investment because it is institutional grade, nation reserve, state reserve status grade, and I think that more and more nations will start to adopt Bitcoin as a reserve asset. I’m not saying that nations will all suddenly flock to it being a currency because I think every country and government will still want issue their own currencies that they can tax citizens on and collect and do their their business via their own currencies. But I think as a reserve asset, we’re going to see an increased allocation over the next decade to gold, as well as Bitcoin. So

James Connor 25:15
let’s talk about volatility. Now, one of the things that really stands out to me in terms of the poor performance, you cannot deny it, okay, but it comes with extreme volatility. So we’ve had many 60 to 70% draw downs. And if you were a portfolio manager, managing other people’s money, you’d be out of a job if you had that type of drawdown. But given this level of volatility, it’s not really an asset you want in your portfolio to protect yourself because of these massive draw downs. And if you did, it would be very small allocation. But it also has a very high correlation with the NASDAQ. And I guess my question to you is, is Bitcoin just another risk asset that people trade, like in video or NF Ts? I

Natalie Brunell 25:59
mean, I think that right now, a lot of people see it as a risk on asset and so they they trade it in that manner. But those are the people that don’t really understand Bitcoin, people that are trading in and out of this asset, don’t have the kind of conviction that most people do to hold it. And if you look at the numbers, if you look at on chain metrics, most people actually hold Bitcoin. In fact, most people hold on to it for not just a year but several years. And I think that the volatility is actually it can be a benefit to portfolios, if you look at things like the Sharpe ratio of Bitcoin and the asymmetry that it provides. So if you have, there have been so many models done, including one by a gentleman by the name of Hoffa at Swan, he goes by at Alpha Zeta on on Twitter, he did, he did something called the Nakamoto portfolio, you can go to that website. And you can literally plug in different allocations of asset classes, including bonds, the s&p the indices, and Vidya and Bitcoin. And you can change the different allocations and then zoom out over one year, five years, 10 years, however much you want. And you will see that a portfolio that has even just a tiny bit of Bitcoin, just a little bit with that short term volatility that you refer to outperforms a lot of these other asset classes, most of them in fact, and so it’s just like very clear when you see the visuals show you that even just having a tiny bit of Bitcoin can send your portfolio into a whole nother range in terms of appreciation versus if you just did a more traditional passive passive strategy, which so many investors are, you know, accustomed to doing. Interesting,

James Connor 27:39
I will definitely check out that site. Now, I got to ask you about the Bitcoin haters in Bitcoin has many of them. And I guess the two that really stand out in my mind are Jamie Dimon and also Elizabeth Warren. But why do you think Jamie Dimon refuses to see the benefits of Bitcoin even after the success that we’ve seen with the Bitcoin? ETFs?

Natalie Brunell 27:59
So I think that Jamie Dimon is just a proponent waiting to happen, Elizabeth Warren to you know, you have to look at what they do not what they say Jamie diamonds bank, JP Morgan Chase is a market maker and an authorized participant in these Bitcoin ETF, so they must not hate it that much because they’re involved in these ETFs. I also, I’ve also heard that JP, or Jamie diamonds, family members, some of them have allocated to Bitcoin, I think when you look at it, just without a lot of context, you think that well, these banks could get intermediated or disintermediated, rather with Bitcoin? Because why? Why? Why do you need a bank like that when you can become your own bank and you can transfer globally, but I think in the future, there will be components to Bitcoin that will be within regulated compliant rails, meaning that the banks will actually hold Bitcoin and allow you to buy it and facilitate it. I don’t recommend necessarily going down those avenues and introducing counterparty risk and holding with things like banks and exchanges. I teach people self custody, but I do think that there will be a huge portion of the population who says, You know what, I don’t want to take that on or maybe not yet. I don’t want to do self custody. I’m comfortable trusting this third party and and so I think that banks increasingly retail banks will move into the Bitcoin sector, I think they will facilitate the ability for people to hold and transfer Bitcoin on their platforms. And when it comes to Elizabeth Warren, I just would satis I just don’t think that she’s opened her eyes and ears to how Bitcoin can really help the people she’s passionately fighting for. I know that she really she strives to be an advocate for the working class and the working person. And bitcoin is the best way for the working person to save for the future. So I think that they would be natural friends. I don’t know why their foes. Maybe we haven’t done a good enough job getting her attention and getting her to really listen to us, because the only other alternative in the conversation about Oh, Elizabeth is if she really does understand Bitcoin? And I don’t think she does. But if she does, and she’s against it, then that’s, that’s malicious. And I don’t want to believe that our leaders are actually sitting there being malicious about our ability to have this asset that allows us to protect our purchasing power. I like to sometimes just think it’s people being misinformed, well intentioned, but misinformed and not having the right information and education. Well,

James Connor 30:23
very good points. So I want to get your views on the US economy. Now you speak to many experts all across the globe. And I’m sure yet you hear some interesting insights as to what they’re saying. And you also made mention earlier of government’s propensity to print money. And we know that’s one thing they do do very well. And the inflation that we’ve seen in the last few years is the highest inflation we’ve seen in the last 40 or 50 years. What’s your take on the US economy? How well do you think it’s really doing?

Natalie Brunell 30:54
Yeah, I think we’re being gaslit. Right now, I think that the numbers do not show the growing weakness in the economy. I don’t believe the unemployment numbers, they’re always having to be readjusted the CPI metric, I don’t fully trust either it discounts certain areas that are extremely important and experiencing more inflation. And so I am saddened by the fact that we hear a lot in mainstream news, which again, on my old industry, that everything’s sort of okay, and the the working person is healthy. But when you peer under the surface, you see that people are taking on ridiculous amounts of consumer debt, credit card debt, people are staying in their homes, because they got mortgages that they’ve got locked in at those low mortgage rates during the height of the COVID stimulus. That’s not a sign of like a healthy economy on the real estate side, that people are just kind of forced to stay in their homes. And so the supply has been constricted, keeping other prices elevated, I just I just think we’re in, we’re at a point where the consequences of our monetary and fiscal policies over the last two decades are really coming to a head, but we keep suppressing the consequences like or the economic reality that we shouldn’t be in which ultimately, we should, we should have had a major crash. And they they don’t allow that they come in and they paper over it, they are ready with their bank lending facility so that the banks don’t go under I mean, they’re ready at any given moment to weaken the dollar. And so what we’ve seen that people I think, need to zoom out, especially the mainstream financial media, what the truth of the matter is, yes, we’ve tightened the monetary policy side, but we have completely loosened the fiscal policy, which keeps inflation elevated, the brilliant analysts that are in the space that are far smarter than me, they call it fiscal dominance, we are in fiscal dominance, which is why inflation remains sticky. And we just keep printing and issuing more debt, we’re now paying so much in interest expenses. I mean, our interest expense is now rivaling our military budget, there’s something very wrong and economy is definitely not healthy when it’s running those types of deficits when we’re not even in a recession. So I don’t know where things can head from here other than they’re going to have to step in and inject more liquidity if things start to dysfunction in the treasury markets. So we’re in a, we’re in a very, we’re not in a great place, when it comes to the health of our economy at the base layer, people are not able to save for the future. And the more that they print, the more that the wealth gap is going to continue to just accelerate and intensify, which leads to more populism. People feeling frustrated, they want government handouts, they want their debt canceled, I mean, the all of these things are really understandable when you peel back the layers of this very broken financial system that now subsists on just issuing more and more credit. So we need a fix. The best fix that I see is Bitcoin, I would say gold would be my second choice. But I think that again, people when they zoom out, just just look at how much we’re spending in terms of our fiscal deficits. The risk free asset being treasuries, they are now more volatile than equities market. I mean, literally, if we’re going to talk about volatility, yes, Bitcoin is volatile, but now treasuries have become more volatile than US equities. And they will come in and print they will debase we’re not going to move into austerity, they’re not going to let the whole system crash and unwind. They’re going to step in and inject liquidity and weaken the dollar. And that means you need hard scarce assets. And the best one is Bitcoin.

James Connor 34:22
Very well said. So we are in an election year, and Biden is doing everything he can to stay in power. He’s spending trillions of dollars, you made mention of the fact that this massive spending going on with fiscal policy, and the debt is currently around $35 trillion. It’s growing by $1 trillion every 100 days. What are your thoughts on this? And and maybe you can just elaborate a little bit more on how Bitcoin is a solution to this growing debt?

Natalie Brunell 34:49
Sure. Well, I think the sad thing is that we’ve sort of been desensitized to the idea that we are taking on so much debt. I mean, how many times can people recall Over the last several decades that the debt ceiling has been raised, they end up printing more the balance sheet expands and everything kind of stays together, right? But But look, I mean, look at the cost of living and the quality of life for the average American or the average person and many countries, it is really deteriorating, and it’s a lot easier for the billionaires and they’re getting wealthier and wealthier. In fact, after the pandemic, they they got, I mean exponentially more more of the chunk of wealth in our society, but the average person is really suffering. So we need something to fix it. For the average person, this is why I focus so much on Bitcoin education, because there really is no stopping this train. Our system relies on ever expanding credit. The more they print, the more it dilutes the unit that all of us carry, like each individual unit is worth less the purchasing power erodes, and inflation is the currency is where the release valve is. And so we need an escape hatch we need we need to start accumulating property. But if you look at society, I mean, most people are not super wealthy, they can’t just start investing in the stock market, which is technically risky. They can’t just buy up a bunch of beautiful properties and you know, beach front, this skyscrapers here, they can’t necessarily buy a huge thing of gold. So what is the alternative? I mean, what can literally anyone around the world start to accumulate even a dollars worth? Yen’s worth a euros worth on any given day? It’s Bitcoin. So I think Bitcoin is the solution for everyday working people to start to hold on and preserve their purchasing power and grow it over time. And its performance speaks for itself. But when it comes to a nation state that is so indebted and addicted to the money printer, we need to refill our coffers with hard money. This is why we see more and more banks allocate and purchase gold. I mean, the demand for gold from central banks is that are a record high, at least in our lifetimes. And I think that nation states also need to turn to something like Bitcoin because it is scarcer and harder than gold. And it’s something that I think will allow them to create a a baseline of wealth so that they don’t have to print as much money. And I don’t know where things will go in terms of you know, the global reserve asset or currency, I think that the dollar will remain global reserve currency for a while because most debt is denominated in dollars. And most transactions globally occur in dollars. But as far as an asset, Treasuries are being reduced in terms of their global reserve asset. Properties, because of how much we’re printing and countries are turning away from it. They’re form formulating things like bricks. So we really need to take a hard look at that. And I think we need to return to a system based on hard money, Bitcoin being the best version of hard money. And

James Connor 38:01
Natalie, what would be your messaging to a traditional investor like myself, who’s a big believer in gold and has always had an allocation toward physical gold in my portfolio? What would you say to that person as to why they should make an allocation toward Bitcoin?

Natalie Brunell 38:17
Well, I would say that, if you’re an investor who’s reluctant about Bitcoin, that means you don’t understand it well enough. So I would challenge you to do what you can spend 100 hours learning about it. I mean, if you’re thinking about where to allocate the fruits of your labor, the money that will take care of your family, your retirement, maybe future generations, I think, I think 100 hours is something everyone should dedicate to learning about Bitcoin. I think that Bitcoin will be a global form of money. And I think that it will be the best way for people to save for their futures. And I think it’s okay to start with a small allocation. I don’t think that gold is bad, I think that gold will will play a role, but I think there will ultimately be a transition to, to only really digital money. And I think that it’s really important for people to take the time to really study it. And

James Connor 39:09
Natalie, Bitcoin is trading in the low 60s 60,000 62,000. And it’s already had a big move. And I guess one of the things I always tell myself, it’s already up 50% on the year and we’re only five months into the year. But is it too late? For Do you think the price still has a long way to go?

Natalie Brunell 39:26
No, it’s not too late. It’s unbelievably early. Most people have no allocation to Bitcoin that’s slowly changing the ETFs are, are helping with that. I think that Bitcoin will be the best performing asset of the next decade. And I think it’s the best thing that you can add to a portfolio and, you know, be aware of the short term volatility. I think, also take that extra step, learn how to self custody, because it’s always best to be your own bank and not trust counterparties and intermediaries the way that our current system is set up and I I really believe that as far as how high Bitcoin could go, there are predictions of a million dollars of Bitcoin by 2030. I have no reason to think that that won’t happen at some point. Natalie,

James Connor 40:12
as we wrap up, we started this conversation by you telling us your backstory and how you got into Bitcoin. And you made mention of the fact that your parents moved from Poland, to the US to pursue the American dream, do you think the American dream still exists?

Natalie Brunell 40:28
I think that there has been a decline in the the hope that comes with the American dream, I think it’s still possible, but it’s eluding a lot of people because of how difficult it is to afford life today. And on a personal note, when I was working as a reporter, before I understood the financial system and what was broken, and before I found Bitcoin, I was starting to lose hope in the future, I didn’t know how I would afford a house and a retirement and to pay off student loan debt. And I just I looked out into the future, and I felt a lot of fear. And we’re seeing right now in the numbers, younger people not having a better life than their parents, which which usually the next generation has it easier and better, and they’re able to afford more. And for the first time, we’re actually seeing kids worse off than their parents when their grandparents were something needs to change that Bitcoin is the best hope for that it literally infused me with hope. But I had to first really peel back the layers of how the financial system worked and what was broken in it. And so now I look at the future of one where the American dream will be revitalized, it will be a renaissance of the American dream, and not just the American dream, because the American dream really represents something universal, you know, espouses the idea that you can, you could come from anywhere and you could accomplish anything you want. You just have to work hard. Well, that dream is possible when the money is actually good when it’s not broken. And so I think that we’ll have the American dream. In many places, I think there will be an El Salvador dream, I think there will be a Madera dream. There will be a dream in every country if we can fix the money on a global scale. Well,

James Connor 42:08
that was a great discussion. I want to thank you very much for spending time with us today. If somebody would like to follow you online and learn more about you and what you do. Where can they go? Yes,

Natalie Brunell 42:18
sir. So I’m very active on social media at knapper. Now on X, my websites talking bitcoin.com And I have a free newsletter weekly with economic updates. That’s at Natalie brunel.substack.com.

James Connor 42:30
And you were always attending and also speaking at various conferences, are there any conferences that we should be aware of?

Natalie Brunell 42:37
Yeah, so there’s the big annual Bitcoin Conference that happens once a year it’s in Nashville this year, July 25, through the 27th you can use code Hottel for 10% off and I’m hosting a women of Bitcoin brunch there. It’s our third annual brunch bringing together more than 300 women and I’m super excited because you mentioned demographics earlier and we need to see more women in Bitcoin.

James Connor 42:59
100% Listen, Natalie, thank you very much.

Natalie Brunell 43:03
Thank you so much. Well, I

James Connor 43:05
hope you enjoy that discussion with Natalie Brunello and to give you some insights onto the benefits of Bitcoin as an investment class. As Natalie mentioned, Bitcoin shares meaning the same principles and benefits as gold does, but unlike Bitcoin, gold has been used as a store of value in a hedge against inflation for over 5000 years. And if you would like to learn more about gold and how it can benefit your portfolio, visit our sister company hard assets. alliance.com hard assets Alliance is a trusted platform that’s used by well over 100,000 institutional and retail investors to buy and sell gold bullion and gold coins. Once again, that’s hard assets alliance.com If you have any suggestions on who else you would like to see on our YouTube channel, please let us know in the comments section below. I want to thank you very much for spending time with us today and I look forward to seeing you again soon.